Idea - Cycling DHT and DHT Prohormones

[English]

Thanks for all the comments! I appreciate the info! I'll look into Tren but from what I remember, Tren has two pathways to suppresion of test - I can't exactly remember what they are at this time but I'll double check. This might be a possible solution

I dont care about my hair any longer as a matter of fact I welcome being bald. lol I started losing it at age 19 so my body is designed for high DHT. At that age and up until I took Fin at 23 (8 months, 2 mgs/day) - I would get pimples on my head. I had rock hard morning word every morning and it wouldn't subside until I pissed. Also, I was quick to anger but at the same time I was extremely enthusiastic about life. I'm looking for pimples on head as a sign my dht is back online. I've gotten a couple small ones lately. My dad had pimples on his head until age 50, I'm 32 now. As you can see, I've been in this condition for years and only within the last couple years, I've tried to do something about it.

You are right WesleyInman about the delivery method being different and I'm hoping to capitalize on that. For instance AV3 and AV2 are supposedly getting uptaked through the lymphatic system bypassing the liver - not sure about AV1. Alpha Hard looks to be through the GI track and passed through the liver. Andro 300 is topical so straight to the blood but needs conversion and Andractim is the direct stuff. All point to the same goal of increasing DHT but I've noticed on each of these the best benifits are within the first few days. I haven't tried Andro 300 yet but I will buy some here shortly. Has anyone tried this stuff? I'll look into getting some Epi as well.

My dumbass took Fenugreek from Primdordial Performance (great company, not dogging them at all, it was my fault) which is a 5ar suppressor and rice protein which is also a 5ar supppressor. I've wasted about a year plus and several cycles worth of AV3 because of these mistakes. I cannot afford to make these types of mistakes - financially, physically, emotionally.

On a positive note, my musculature has responsed very well to these cycles.

Just want to point out that hair loss is because of the genetic disposition of certain hair follicles to react to DHT or not + 100 issues. You get guys with high DHT levels that have brilliant heads of head till the day they die. It has very little to do with DHT levels in isolation, however clearly if you ramp up DHT with exogenous pharma then already sensitive follicles will run for cover. I know you don't care about hair anymore (neither do i) but it is wrong to summise you naturally have high DHT just because of genetic hair loss and pimples and therefore you must get back to high DHT. The overwhelming odds are that you had fairly standard levels of DHT/Test/E etc. for your age, but you had/have hair and skin that is sensitive to androgens, as was your whole body given your MW etc.
I personally remember hitting my erect penis in frustration every morning trying to get it to go down so i could take a piss! You don't appreciate what you have till it's gone etc.

[English]

I'm not on test at this time. The reason is my aromatase activity is very high - I'm estrogen dominant at this time and that is because I have little androgen procduction to counter blanace it. I dont have any labs but from everything I've read, this seems to be very much the case. Also, from what I've read, straight DHT isn't as suppressive as direct test; however, I'm not sure to what degree. Andractim reports show little hpta suppression and Eric Potratz also points to limited suppression from straight DHT prohormones. My hope is that any reduction in Testosterone will also reduce my Estrogen and leave more DHT available to do its thing. A lot of this is guess work.
I never knew Anavar could cause gyno, I'm guessing more so from PCT versus during cycle. This makes me think a taping approach from my current DHT might be a better way to end my cycle rather than straight dropping it. I've been thinking about this for some time now and haven't made up my mind.

Silverstrand, sorry to be blunt but you are experimenting with some serious shit without having any idea of your current hormonal situation, sufferers of this condition often think this or that about their hormones, get tested and find the opposite of what they thought the results would be. I know of many guys with high T, high DHT and normal E and yet they impotent and suffer with low androgen symptoms- this is the post fin condition sadly.
If i were you i would get off the DHT and all pharma for a few months, concentrate on diet, exercise and your mental state and then get bloods done. It is relatively easy to manipulate your bloods but you really need to know the position from which you are manipulating in the first place.
As an example, 5 blood tests over my first year of suffering showed my androgen levels were in the toilet, but my last 2 bloods have shown T at 28 and 24, (800 and 700) E at around 40 nmol/L and SHBG at 36, and i got them there through diet, exercise and extremely low dose of AI. I could achieve this because i told the guys here my bloods. Jelisej advised me and i reacted accordingly.
You are shooting in the dark and given how easy it is to get your bloods done, surely you should see where you are at. If you keep diet and exercise solid and get off all pharma etc. for 3 months, like many guys with this issue, you may well already have naturally high T and DHT yet still feel shit, and this is often the way. In this situation you just have to keep positive, and keep the exercise and diet consistent and over time you will improve, and yes, i see you have been suffering for almost 10 years, but from what you wrote, you have only just got serious about exercise and nutrition yes? I expect that you are retaining muscle better as a result of your recent diet and exercise and potential upregulation of AR receptors etc. not the DHT which is not particularly androgenic in relation to muscle building.
My bloods look great, but i am still not feeling optimally healthy. It sucks but such is the condition, sometimes shit just takes time to work it's way through.
I hope you don't think i am ripping into your methodology unduly. I am one of the most positive guys there is when it comes to recovering from this condition, but to get recovered, it takes both positivity, but also a considered approach. After so long i want to see you recover as you clearly have the will to do it. I just want the best for you, so hopefully i have given you some more information from someone who has all but recovered.
By the way, just to add weight to what i am saying. A friend of mine decided to do follow the same plan as me, virtually at the same time, we both left Propecia Help because it was so negative, he is all but recovered too now. Neither of us owe our recoveries to DHT or derivitives, however both of us are now cycling with them, but just to optimise. Both of us know our blood conditions through testing.
Just sayin.
All the very best of luck to you in whatever you decide.

[entropy]

I'm going to take a different approach to everyone else and critique. So, where to begin. How's your diet and exercise? Solid as a rock I'd assume? That's the core to any kinda healing here. Why are you cycling three different "forms" of dht? What the point here? All this confusing your body with different compounds crap is a recipe for disaster. Anyway its possible to get out of this situation but long stints of exogenous hormones aren't the answer IMO.

[tallstraw]

I'm just gonna say thanks for the adractim location and goodluck on your journey

[English]

I'm going to take a different approach to everyone else and critique. So, where to begin. How's your diet and exercise? Solid as a rock I'd assume? That's the core to any kinda healing here. Why are you cycling three different "forms" of dht? What the point here? All this confusing your body with different compounds crap is a recipe for disaster. Anyway its possible to get out of this situation but long stints of exogenous hormones aren't the answer IMO.

Yep, that was kinda what i was saying but in a less direct way - totally agree.

[silverstrand]

I think you're thinking about this in the wrong way. I was definitely suppressed on my first cycle of androhard only. My nuts shrank significantly.

Adding test at a low dose will reduce the chances of some type of estrogenic rebound. You're increasing your likelyhood of one by dropping estrogen too low through a dht only cycle.

That is the same way anavar would cause gyno.

I do like tapering dht into pct though. It allows gyno prevention and strength retention while your testosterone begins to increase from the serms. 2 week taper is good.

I see your point - at this time, I dont have any test on me and I'm nearly halfway through this cycle. However, I you helped me make up my mind on the tapering - 2 weeks was about what I was thinking.

[silverstrand]

Hi Silverstrand,

I am virtually recovered now from the same shit your dealing with, i took propecia though which lowered DHT and ended in same result as you. Many guys get the same issue from taking saw palmetto too - in a way it is a relief for me that it is not just some weird phenomenen from propecia/finasteride.
I have been through the same recoverery plan as a number of others who also recovered - i copied the common denominators.
Of course it is possible that i am wrong, but i am 100% convinced that our issue has nothing to do with suppressed AR5 expression now. Why? Because virtually every blood result i have seen - and i have looked at 100's - from sufferers has shown normal DHT expression, or at least in the range expected when linked with the free testosterone scores.
You can take DHT away completely, leaving normal T and E levels and most guys still feel fine.
No, IMO you can cycle the DHT by all means, primarily because studies have shown the presence of increased DHT does upregulate AR5 activity, but personally i would do it for smaller cycles, with modest doses.
My money is on the cause being some kind of downregulation of receptors or signalling issue, that gradually fixes over time, encouraged by solid diet, low stress and the resultant raising of androgens - over time.
To give you some idea of where i was - i lost nearly 28 pounds of muscle, suffered anxiety, insomnia, had all the sexual issues, thin dry skin, hair dry and falling out. I certainly wanted to die most days, but never gave up on being positive and carrying out the plan.
If you haven't already done it, i would advise you read the recovery story of CDSNUTS on propecia help -BUT IGNORE ALL THE NEGATIVE SHIT ON THERE - print it off and keep it with you.
Personally i only fasted for 3 days, but i did the rest and i have all but recovered within 17 months. His recovery plan mirrored most of the stuff within about 10 other recovery stories i read too there and on the rest of the web, and whilst he did cycle DHT, it was for just 6 weeks and this was one small part of the overal plan, and i will add that this did not feature in any of the tens of recoveries i have read elsewhere.
Regards bloods, it might help a bit to see the easy transformation i achieved (with the advice of Jelisej) by reading the SHBG questions thread (in general section), and this lifted me from an almost recovered state to what i consider a recovered state - if not quite optimal yet.
More power to you if you achieve your desired result in a different way, but just drawing your attention to the more common recovery protocol for this issue.
Hope that helps a bit.

Its a relief for me as well that Fenugreek, Rice Extract, and Saw Palmentto can all cause the same issues and that those issues can be resolved.
There's a lot of theories floating around such as the one you mention. Also, I've read somewhere that the body potentially is producing a form of androgen resistence, mimicking Finasteride after stopping the drug. I guess it would make sense that the body once it gets used to a certain homeostatus, it will fight to maintain that status and thereby produce the very compounds no longer administered exogenously. I've looked into transgender from Male to Female and anti androgens are key for this transition. Warning lables should include that this drug can and is used for such purposes. I would have never touched the stuff if I knew. I believe my body is in a confused state, so basically, I need to slap the bitch out of me with androgens and clean lifestyle like you mention.
I took your advice and read his story, there's some great info! I've been to that site before and there is a lot of negativity - I've never been a negative person and I'm very much against that type of behavior.
I'll take a look at the SHBG - I find this interesting because I think the body might actually be binding some of this DHT I put into it and expelling it during urination. I feel, I might be losing a lot of the compounds (another guess). I think you are right in that getting some blood work would be informative.
Can you point me in the direction of those other 10 recovery stories? - if its too much trouble no worries.

[silverstrand]

Just want to point out that hair loss is because of the genetic disposition of certain hair follicles to react to DHT or not + 100 issues. You get guys with high DHT levels that have brilliant heads of head till the day they die. It has very little to do with DHT levels in isolation, however clearly if you ramp up DHT with exogenous pharma then already sensitive follicles will run for cover. I know you don't care about hair anymore (neither do i) but it is wrong to summise you naturally have high DHT just because of genetic hair loss and pimples and therefore you must get back to high DHT. The overwhelming odds are that you had fairly standard levels of DHT/Test/E etc. for your age, but you had/have hair and skin that is sensitive to androgens, as was your whole body given your MW etc.
I personally remember hitting my erect penis in frustration every morning trying to get it to go down so i could take a piss! You don't appreciate what you have till it's gone etc.

You absolutely dont appreciate it until its lost - its been 10 years for me now - I want that back! After reading about other peoples successes, I feel I can. I'm not too sure that my levels are all that good, only because I cant sleep for much longer than 4 hrs at a time and I dont have morning wood. I a rare occasion, I will wake up to a solid rock hard boner but thats so sporatic. Typically, I have morning soft wood. Sex is alright. The women I'm with seem to enjoy it but I know its just not me.
Even though I've been running Andractim for a month and a half, my hair hasn't fallen out. I've even tried rubbing some on the top of my scalp and still my hair stays strong. This leads me to believe there is some form of androgen resistance. I've also noticed that after urinating, my libido goes down from the uptick it gets from Andractim and Androhard. I believe my body is trying to expel the androgens. This is also why I think a longer cycle makes more sense. I've read from this forum and from people like Eric Potratz that it takes 2 months or more to directly affect the hormonal balance of the body in a perminant way. Shorter cycles allow for a rebound to the norm but I dont want my current norm, I want a new norm.

[silverstrand]

Silverstrand, sorry to be blunt but you are experimenting with some serious shit without having any idea of your current hormonal situation, sufferers of this condition often think this or that about their hormones, get tested and find the opposite of what they thought the results would be. I know of many guys with high T, high DHT and normal E and yet they impotent and suffer with low androgen symptoms- this is the post fin condition sadly.
If i were you i would get off the DHT and all pharma for a few months, concentrate on diet, exercise and your mental state and then get bloods done. It is relatively easy to manipulate your bloods but you really need to know the position from which you are manipulating in the first place.
As an example, 5 blood tests over my first year of suffering showed my androgen levels were in the toilet, but my last 2 bloods have shown T at 28 and 24, (800 and 700) E at around 40 nmol/L and SHBG at 36, and i got them there through diet, exercise and extremely low dose of AI. I could achieve this because i told the guys here my bloods. Jelisej advised me and i reacted accordingly.
You are shooting in the dark and given how easy it is to get your bloods done, surely you should see where you are at. If you keep diet and exercise solid and get off all pharma etc. for 3 months, like many guys with this issue, you may well already have naturally high T and DHT yet still feel shit, and this is often the way. In this situation you just have to keep positive, and keep the exercise and diet consistent and over time you will improve, and yes, i see you have been suffering for almost 10 years, but from what you wrote, you have only just got serious about exercise and nutrition yes? I expect that you are retaining muscle better as a result of your recent diet and exercise and potential upregulation of AR receptors etc. not the DHT which is not particularly androgenic in relation to muscle building.
My bloods look great, but i am still not feeling optimally healthy. It sucks but such is the condition, sometimes shit just takes time to work it's way through.
I hope you don't think i am ripping into your methodology unduly. I am one of the most positive guys there is when it comes to recovering from this condition, but to get recovered, it takes both positivity, but also a considered approach. After so long i want to see you recover as you clearly have the will to do it. I just want the best for you, so hopefully i have given you some more information from someone who has all but recovered.
By the way, just to add weight to what i am saying. A friend of mine decided to do follow the same plan as me, virtually at the same time, we both left Propecia Help because it was so negative, he is all but recovered too now. Neither of us owe our recoveries to DHT or derivitives, however both of us are now cycling with them, but just to optimise. Both of us know our blood conditions through testing.
Just sayin.
All the very best of luck to you in whatever you decide.

No, I dont feel you are ripping me at all. I appreciate your feedback - I joined this group for that very reason. I dont want people to just agree with me all the time. I've made mistakes in the past and these discussions help me refine my thoughts and therefore my corresponding actions to avoid similar mistakes in the future.
To answer your question, yes, I've only been serious about it the last couple years. I only ever felt like I was capable of reversing this condition within the last 2 years. I really needed too because as we age, naturally our hormone profiles drop. Well, I crippled mine way too early and therefore, I really started feeling like shit. I knew it wasn't natural and that I had to do something.
I want to finish up this cycle and take a long 3 month break where I will have a PCT and cycle testosterone boosters. This thread was started because I'm trying to plan out my next cycle and I'm brainstorming. Plus I figured it be a great way to meet everyone on this forum.

[silverstrand]

I'm going to take a different approach to everyone else and critique. So, where to begin. How's your diet and exercise? Solid as a rock I'd assume? That's the core to any kinda healing here. Why are you cycling three different "forms" of dht? What the point here? All this confusing your body with different compounds crap is a recipe for disaster. Anyway its possible to get out of this situation but long stints of exogenous hormones aren't the answer IMO.

Diet is great - mainly raw foods/vegies with some Pea Protein in the mix. If anyone has something against Pea protein, let me konw - all research I found points to it being good source of protein that isn't anti androgenic. Exercise is good too. I can run 2 miles in 12min 30 secs to give you some idea of conditioning.
The different forms are mainly because of their different delivery systems, timing, and the way the body converts the various hormones to DHT. At this time, I'm only on 5gs of andractim and 1/3 does of Androhard V3 per day.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm just gonna say thanks for the adractim location and goodluck on your journey

No prob tallstraw, gald I could help