Idea - Cycling DHT and DHT Prohormones

[silverstrand]

Hi English and others,

I'm a 5AR victim too, although not via fin but Accutane.

I crashed on 1st Jan 2013 and have been left in a pretty bad state. I recovered from the psychological issues (anhedonia mainly), but sexual issues persevere and are worsening.

However, even prior to taking Accutane I was living healthy. I have been eating paleo for about 5 years. I weight train 3-4x/week with a focus on large compound movements, mainly squat and deadlift variations. I also compete in MMA so HIIT is incorporated extensively prior to competing.

My T levels have doubled, now up at top of range 26.8 (I forget the the units) on a scale of 8-28. Yet I still suffer.

I'm thinking of playing around with some pharmaceuticals considering my lack of luck with the more holistic route. I'm thinking AI's. Any thoughts?

Of note, tribulus and creatine in high doses make my symptoms worse.

I would be very interested in hearing others inputs, as I am a bit lost as what to do now.

Hi Crank92,

I took this quote from wiki:
"Isotretinoin's exact mechanism of action is unknown, but several studies have shown that isotretinoin induces apoptosis (cell death) in various cells in the body. Cell death may be instigated in the meibomian glands,[53][54] hypothalamic cells,[55] hippocampus cells[56][57] and—important for treatment of acne—in sebaceous gland cells.[58][59] Isotretinoin has a low affinity for retinoic acid receptors (RAR) and retinoid X receptors (RXR), but may be converted intracellularly to metabolites that act as agonists of RAR and RXR nuclear receptors.[4]"

My best advice is to study the mechanism in which accutane affected your body. Then learn about the feedbackloops it disrupted. From there, you might be able to come up with a protocol to reverse your symptoms. Myself, English, CDsnuts are more studied on Fin and 5a blockers. You'll need to become your own expert on Accutane and find others who have solved this problem.

BTW, since Accutane can cause cell death in organs like the Hypothalamus, the starting point for most/all hormones, you might want to take a look at Glandulars. Sometimes your body is able to use ingested organs of other animals for repair. This may or may not help but its another tool in your tool box now.

[silverstrand]

Hey man that andracim or however it's spelled is it Prescription only or ??? Interested in the direct dht..? U like it? Experiences?

I thought this would benefit everyone.

Hi Bam24,

It is prescription only but if you buy abroad, they don’t ask. So far it has hardened my muscles without working out all that much as I'm having trouble sleeping and lack the energy. The thing to note about it Andractim is it will lower your T4 which will result in lowered T3. I can tell because my body temperature goes down for a short time after dosing. I run a full dose in the morning and to not suppress my thyroid hormones, I found out its best not to dose throughout the day. Additionally, to offset the reduction in T4 and T3, I take 100 mcg of T4 and 25 mcg of T3 upon dosing. This seems to help and after 2 hours my hands are warm again and throughout the day.
As far as liking Andractim, I believe it’s working differently for me than it would for others. For instance, my body is Estrogen dominant at this point so much of it is being bound to SHBG and excreted with urine. I find the initial sexual bump I get from it to go immediately after my first piss post dose.
I will say, that if I ever wanted to run a DHT compound in a cycle with other AAS, I would run this instead of Masterone or Proviron. It just seems way more natural and I believe it is none suppressive to HPTA at the levels I'm using it - I have theories on this but I suggest you do some research. The reports support limited to no suppression on HPTA. The only suppression I believe would come from Test to estrogen and that negative feedback loop becuase your DHT production will be temporarily slowed - so a mild AI would be optimal as well if running test. It’s not without side effects as I mentioned T4 and T3 but these seems mild and revert back almost right away (few hours) for me at least. If I ran it in a cycle, I'd apply after my workout and quick shower.
BTW, application is kind of a bitch. You have to do it everyday and I use condoms on two fingers to rub onto the body, gloves work too but I had non-lubricated condoms at the time so that’s what I used and stuck with. You don’t want this on your hands, it will make them feel really stiff.

[entropy]

I thought this would benefit everyone.

Hi Bam24,

It is prescription only but if you buy abroad, they don’t ask. So far it has hardened my muscles without working out all that much as I'm having trouble sleeping and lack the energy. The thing to note about it Andractim is it will lower your T4 which will result in lowered T3. I can tell because my body temperature goes down for a short time after dosing. I run a full dose in the morning and to not suppress my thyroid hormones, I found out its best not to dose throughout the day. Additionally, to offset the reduction in T4 and T3, I take 100 mcg of T4 and 25 mcg of T3 upon dosing. This seems to help and after 2 hours my hands are warm again and throughout the day.
As far as liking Andractim, I believe it’s working differently for me than it would for others. For instance, my body is Estrogen dominant at this point so much of it is being bound to SHBG and excreted with urine. I find the initial sexual bump I get from it to go immediately after my first piss post dose.
I will say, that if I ever wanted to run a DHT compound in a cycle with other AAS, I would run this instead of Masterone or Proviron. It just seems way more natural and I believe it is none suppressive to HPTA at the levels I'm using it - I have theories on this but I suggest you do some research. The reports support limited to no suppression on HPTA. The only suppression I believe would come from Test to estrogen and that negative feedback loop becuase your DHT production will be temporarily slowed - so a mild AI would be optimal as well if running test. It’s not without side effects as I mentioned T4 and T3 but these seems mild and revert back almost right away (few hours) for me at least. If I ran it in a cycle, I'd apply after my workout and quick shower.
BTW, application is kind of a bitch. You have to do it everyday and I use condoms on two fingers to rub onto the body, gloves work too but I had non-lubricated condoms at the time so that’s what I used and stuck with. You don’t want this on your hands, it will make them feel really stiff.

Dude do you have bloodwork to back up the need for thyroid hormone supplementation? Tbh we're all pretty clued up on dht and what it does here and I've never heard anything about thyroid hormone suppression. Do you have sources?

[BBG]

To think that after you piss that you're losing a bunch of hormone and reducing your sex drive makes literally no sense lol

[nate3993]

^^

[Freepressright]

To think that after you piss that you're losing a bunch of hormone and reducing your sex drive makes literally no sense lol

I pee to help alleviate morning wood, does that count?

[silverstrand]

Dude do you have bloodwork to back up the need for thyroid hormone supplementation? Tbh we're all pretty clued up on dht and what it does here and I've never heard anything about thyroid hormone suppression. Do you have sources?

It says it right on the insert of the box the tube comes in - it specifically says can suppress T4 but "shouldn't" affect overall free T4 in the body but I know in my case that it does. T4 drops, then so does my T3.

Also, from my research, supplimentation of T3 and T4 within normal levels does not disrupt the Thyroid Feedback Loop like AAS can do to HPTA. If anyone else can point out where this might not be the case, please let me know and I'll research further. I belive for us Post Fin guys it actually might be beneficial. For instance, if my Thyroid hormones drop, the metabolic rate of evey cell in my body slows - well, when I add my DHT, I want the hormone to activate the AR receptors and get everything running, it cant do that is my metabolism has the breaks on.

BTW, I believe this is specific to Andractim and not DHT Prohormones like AndroHard. When I take AndroHard, I dont take any Thyroid hormones, there's no need. Also I dont believe bloodwork would be useful in this case, we aren't talking about permanent suppression, just temporary, a few hours at best.

[silverstrand]

To think that after you piss that you're losing a bunch of hormone and reducing your sex drive makes literally no sense lol

It sounds out there but I have my thoughts on how hormones work in the male body (not all of them ofcourse but many have parallels I would imagine) - nature very much rhymes; these are theories really but they make total sense to me.
Last night, I had my first incredibly strong morning woood in over 10 years. I had to piss for it to subside. Only issue was I woke up to it much to early, after only 4 hours of sleep. So my sleep issues are still there. I belive my androgen depravation over the years has messed my brain function up so it will be several months/maybe longer before it gets corrected.
Not sure if all of you know this, but the male mind is generally bigger than the females and this is attributed to androgens like testosterone. We appearantly have more gray matter than females. Also, we have more empathy than females because the area of our minds for these emotions are larger too. Its funny how women are scene as the more empathetic half of humanity when really its men. We are probably also the most creative and destructive half as well so whatever - I just want to F... chicks all day long and be happy.

[5 alpha victim]

Hi 5, the problem i have with your queries, is that all the info is there on PH on my member story + SHGB questions, it is not correct that i was strictly paleo, and nor was cd or any of the guys i mentioned (mitch, chi, cd and you can add bizzbee333 to that too) I never said i was. I follow a paleo type diet, and the little individual things i have done like the AI at the end are very individual to my needs and my bloods.
I repeat, to recover, read the recovery thread of CD and then the threads from myself, mitch, chi + bizzbee.
Don't follow any of them to the letter, because we are all individual, you must apply research, intelligence and common sense to your recovery plan, tailoring it to your individual circumstances. Take some calculated risks where necessary, but always limiting risk where possible.
The biggest thing is mental recovery, then your body will follow.
Follow the common denominators in those threads, remember CD is not the only one to have ever recovered, there are fucking loads of people who have. The only reason i followed CD in particular - actually Chi in a similar fashion - is because those guys are very intelligent and measured, disciplined and courageous, and they are very similar to my own personality type, so i could believe in them, respect them etc. and thus follow - to an extent - what they did.

Finally, nothing beats learning stuff yourself, i researched for near on 12 months 20hrs a week. I now know a ridiculous amount about diet and exercise, hormonal reactions (in this area i will never know as much as jelisej though), mental recovery techniques etc., the power of belief, i read around 15 books covering these topics, and whilst doing so i worked out like a motherfucker, whilst feeling destroyed most of the time, i swam in the sea whilst everyone else was sleeping, and tens of other things. It's all in the threads mentioned.
Note that i had almost recovered before i ever communicated once with CD.

What i am trying to say, is that you have to take ownership of your own recovery, yes learn from guys like CD, myself, Mitch, Entropy, Chi, but whilst all of us have done similar things, we have still followed our own paths and done stuff that others haven't.
Also, recovery takes proper effort, and you and others have asked me questions about my own recovery and cd's that are covered in previous threads, i mean, it appears you and many others on PH hero worship CD, yet i hear queries about whether i and he were 100% paleo or not, yet i remember word for word how he described his diet - it was "paleo type" and he later described eating corn stuff on carb backloading evenings. Now i've not gone back and read that, i read every word of his thread, same for literally 30 odd others across PH and the web, it took me fucking ages, and i had to read many 3 times because i was so mentally fogged up.
Literally 50 odd guys have asked me queries on all this stuff over the last 17 months and i know CD gets the same. It feels like you all want recovery for free, without learning, without understanding, and without installing belief in yourself.
Get real, this is an extremely challenging condition to recover from, it tests every fibre of your being due its longevity, and to beat it you simply have to gain an understanding of your mind and body, and that does not come from simply copying another's recovery plan to the letter, because that recovery plan has been tailored to their mind and body, not yours - the big things remain the same, yes, but the detail is individual.
Hard work + intelligence + courage + grace + consistency + support + time = recovery.
And in answer to your question, i am 100% recovered, although due to the speed of recovery, my skin is still thickening up, and sensitivity is still returning.
I hope that helps, and i am always pleased to help, but only with questions not already contained in threads that just need reading properly.

I will add one last thing, if i took propecia again today and fell tomorrow, i would be recovered once more within 17 months. Bizzbee did exactly that by the way - the silly fucker recovered 100% then took the pill again and fell again to the condition, stupid as that was he got back on the horse, and the last time i was on PH (a long time ago) he was all but recovered for the second time- after, guess what?- following a very similar recovery plan to Chi, Mitch, CD, Myself, Entropy.
It staggers me that half of the PH crowd spend their time finding reasons why it cannot be recovered from, yet everyone that seriously does what we have done recovers. I spent ages reading stories on PH from guys complaining they hadn't recovered despite doing the CD recovery plan, and a couple of queries later they explained that they binned it after 3 months, or weren't doing one of the cornerstones of the plan or whatever, then they turned into naysayers about how recovery is not possible through a plan.
These people drive me fucking crazy.
After this, my conscience is clear, everything, literally everything you and the others on PH need to know is written up.
Anything not written up, ask me about, i will be very happy to give you my best response, so will CD or Entropy. All of us feel for all of the PH guys, but collectively many guys on there have got into a negative comment spiral, that's why we fucked off, yet we all know there are good guys, bad guys, and middle of the road guys everywhere, including on PH.
Good luck, but if you have it in you, you will not need it.

Sorry for the late response, I got really busy with other stuff for the last few days.

"The biggest thing is mental recovery, then your body will follow"

I agree that your state of mind is a huge factor when recovering from anything this severe and traumatic. With that said mentally I am fine. I have "adapted to my environment" a long time ago. I am not content, happy or normal which is why I always look for new and improved ways to recover but I'm adapted. For me the trick is keeping my mind occupied with work and anything that is far away from a social life. Going out and being around friends, girls ect... For me these things remind me of what I can't have and put me in a really dark place so I stay away from this. Working 65 hours a week helps keep my mind occupied and when I'm not doing that I'm recovering... Sleeping, working out, researching. Some of this may sound like screwed up psychology for others but it works for me.

"It appears you and many others on PH hero worship CD, yet i hear queries about whether i and he were 100% paleo or not

I don't worship anything other than a higher power. Using the word worship is just a little over the top. I made my first post saying that I found the living legend thinking that it was a j/k and that everyone would get a kick out of it. lots of ego on these forums so sometimes it's not that easy.

I do however "look up"to CD for the simple fact that he was mentally tough enough to do three 21 day water fasts, one 14 day water fast and a forty something day juice feast. He was also the guy to come up with the most logical and intelligent recovery protocol ever to posted on PH. I also respect the fact that he is not crazy about the idea of discussing it as it reminds him of the dark days. That thought alone makes me believe that he got hit hard by this but yet was still able to recover.

Man after a seven day juice fast and going down to 179 pounds, I think about how painful it must have been going 47 days. A juice feast has the individual drinking more juice than a juice fast but it's still just unbelievable.

"yet i remember word for word how he described his diet - it was "paleo type"

"and he later described eating corn stuff carb back loading evenings".

I actually recall CD making it pretty clear that he was sticking to a pretty solid paleo diet during a solid chunk of his recovery and that he did not actually incorporate carb back loading into his lifestyle until after he was recovered.

Also keep in mind eating in a manner in which is "paleo type" is hard to interpret in the regard that it is very subjective. For example I'm eating nothing right now other than raw fruits, Veggies and meat. However I still eat my chicken and steak with BBQ sauce that contains preservatives. So technically eating a real paleo diet limits you to only eating what the cave men had available which would obviously not include preservatives. The paleo diet more recently has evolved to include many things that go beyond "the cave man diet". With that said I believe my questions are pretty reasonable.

Anyway the fact is that the version of the paleo diet that I'm eating is working for me so far. I have had major improvements with my digestive system with eating this strict of a paleo diet. Taking carb back loading out of the equation has helped with my digestive system as well. Goes to show how messed up you can get from having this unusual reaction to a DHT inhibiter and how well eating paleo is digested by the body. I have to consider that maybe we really are made to eat like the cavemen!

"the little individual things i have done like the AI at the end are very individual to my needs and my bloods"

I'm glad you explained it like that. That logic actually gave me a couple of new ideas. I feel like my biggest individual needs right now is not getting shut down after all the work I did with my Clomid restart. Therefor I'm going to rotate the natural T boosting herbs before, during and after my andro300 cycle. I'm going to rotate the herbs during my pct. I'm going to give my body everything it needs and than some to not let my T levels crash. If body builders use HCG while on cycle than I don't see how this is a bad idea, it's comparing apples and oranges but the same concept applies.

"Finally, nothing beats learning stuff yourself, i researched for near on 12 months 20hrs a week"

Agreed and I can promise you that I have put my time in as well. My questions although maybe coming across as "nube like" in nature are more for investigatory purposes rather than learning this information for my first time.

"It feels like you all want recovery for free, without learning, without understanding, and without installing belief in yourself"

"Get real, this is an extremely challenging condition to recover from"

I like your advice. If I did not I would not be reaching out to you. But it appears that you are assuming some things about me based on nothing really other than a screen name. I'm good at taking advice and at giving it. It's important for everyone in life when it comes to everything to not let their ego control emotions. I'm not trying to attack here, but it appears you are being just a little over sensitive to honest and fair questions.

It's unreasonable to expect everyone to comprehend everything they read at all times on Internet forums that go in a thousand different directions discussing thousands of different topics.

"following a very similar recovery plan to Chi, Mitch, CD, Myself, Entropy.

I am in the progress of coming up with my own protocol that's based off of everything you guys did but with some changes that I believe will fit a little better into my own personal set of circumstances like you advised.

One of the things that has became clear to me is that the incorporation of the rotation of herbs into my protocol can do more than just help my natty T levels continue to recover after using a PCT following a DHT pro hormone cycle.

I'm considering rotating three different sets of herbs that address the major issues most people face after having their systems altered by a DHT inhibiter. Natty T boosting, insomnia, digestion and improving general nutrition. This way you are recovering while addressing and treating all of the symptoms opposed to just one and at the same time and you are still only taking a small amount of herbs per day. Best of all the Herbs from SMH's address all three of these issues. Some herbs address two or three of these issues all in one herb so coming up with this type of a protocol using these herbs is very possible.

Seeing that this screen name is unpopular and it appears that the only way to fix it is by deleting my account and making a new one I have decided to delete the account and come back in a year or two when I'm recovered. I seen your post on the other thread about how you are not enjoying your time here anymore. Even though I feel this is being a little overly dramatic I also feel partially responsible. Besides I have got all the info from this site that I need for now anyway regarding treating this issue. So staying here and contributing to making a member not enjoy their time here at the same time not making any more solid progress with information gathering does not make any sense.

"And in answer to your question, i am 100% recovered,"

Congratulations, I think that is awesome and hopefully I'll see you around on this forum sometime down the road. If I end up keeping the account it's just to lurk for the purpose of getting more info that may be of use to me but I will not actually post on any threads.

Take care,
5 alpha





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[silverstrand]

Hi 5 Alpha,

Out of respect, I took the time to read your whole post. I believe the discussion has moved away from idea based exchanges to more personalized responses. I'd like to stick with ideas.
I do believe herbal rotation while taking a DHT compound may have its benefits. I believe CD is against it but I dont really see an issue with it except, I do believe estrogen needs to be controlled.