When is a SERM needed? so many different answers

[weakling]

Ok I've seen so many different answers to that question on different threads and I wonder why the opinion on this varries. I'm very much a newbie to the PH world but I've ran two cycles in the last two years and while I understand they were on the mild side(AH, AD, AE, AL, etc) I had successful runs and successful PCT without the need for a SERM.

Seeing that PP is no longer an option I'm putting together a more agressive cycle(EPI, Stano, trenazone) and I've been doing a lot of reading on multiple sites and I'm seeing so many different answers. Anyone know why that is?

Oh by the way I have testforce2, SA and I'm probably going to pick up some clomid from ID

[Enuke65]

This is my understanding, someone who is better at this please step in and fix me if i'm fucked up.


If you're going to use Epi, you're going to need a SERM. Epistane is going to shut you down (suppress endogenous testosterone production). There's a super complex explanation as to how this interacts with the HPTA, and how shutdown will cause an estrogen rebound once your body starts making test again. The body seeks a test/e balance, and will produce a bunch of enzymes to make estrogen out of test to accomplish this, and using some of these designer steroids that suppress natural test production fuck all this up, lots of aromatase enzymes present, so lots of test being converted to estrogen. When your hypothalamus sees a bunch of estrogen, it says cut back on the test production, which kills you're natty test levels even more. SERMs will occupy the receptors in the hypothalamus (and elsewhere in the body, like breast tissues) that say you need more estrogen, so your body will not see a need to make more aromatase enzymes, and will not see a need to cut back on test production.

This is a very rough explanation, if anyone else can pipe in please do so, I'm in a rush and may have glossed over some stuff.
Basically dude, if you're gonna use anything other than the androseries or it's rip-offs (forerunner and aids factory, etc) use a SERM in your PCT, otherwise you will likely lose at least some of your gains, feel like shit (low test) and possibly have issues with estrogen (tits, no sex drive, etc). Keep the SA and the testforce, definitely use them, but do not use only them, GET A SERM, please, for the sake of your balls and lack of man-tits.

Best of luck man.

[harbonah]

I myself would run tamoxifen citrate & clomiphene citrate with any "Tren" based ph supplement I had blood work post tren xtreame solo and was shut down like test level coming back in the 30's.... I know everyone reacts differently but I myself wont risk my balls!

[weakling]

I myself would run tamoxifen citrate & clomiphene citrate with any "Tren" based ph supplement I had blood work post tren xtreame solo and was shut down like test level coming back in the 30's.... I know everyone reacts differently but I myself wont risk my balls!

you would use both tamoxifen and clomiphene? what dose schedule do you use?

What about toremifene? per ID it is equally effective and seems to be more sought after.

[milehighguy]

you would use both tamoxifen and clomiphene? what dose schedule do you use?

What about toremifene? per ID it is equally effective and seems to be more sought after.

weakling, head back over to pp's website and search for 'The Official PCT Thread'. I think it might help give you a little additional background. You can actually still buy SA LV, EndoAmp MAX, and Toco 8 which is the basis of the original PP TRS. Then you can add a SERM to the mix and you should be in good shape. I have not seen many guys use both tamoxifen and clomid but I do believe it would be a good idea if you plan to use something that really shuts you down.

[harbonah]

20mg nolva 100mg clomid weeks 1&2
10mg nolva 50mg clomid weeks 3&4
Week 5 & maybe 6 all depend on the length of the cycle but solo either clomid 25 or nolva 10.


That being said this might be very heavy handed for you my last cycle was 18 weeks long so my pct is based off blood work and what has worked for me.

[burlyman30]

my pct is based off blood work and what has worked for me.

Ultimately, this is the ONLY way to know if a PCT has been effective.

The rest of the recommendations are just guidelines that have worked for others. What will work for an individual, whether OTC or RC or Rx, will ultimately be only proven by bloodwork, not just by "feel". Someone could be "recovered", but end up with a testosterone level 100-200 points below normal. What works for 10 others may work for you also. Or may not.

The problem with SERMs... RC inconsistencies. I think many who have experienced the fluctuations in potency and quality have moved on to Rx Clomid vs. RC of anything else. Toremifene is a great SERM, even preferable to Clomid/Nolva, but only if it is actually toremifene. Plenty of RC users have found this to ring true.

In the past, I've been able to recover from a combination of OTC products even after using harsh compounds, but I found it better to plan a PCT that would extend longer than 4 weeks, as most of the OTC compounds were not as quick of a recovery (at least for me). However, as mentioned by harbonah, I confirmed things with bloodwork. It's just not worth the guessing game.

[harbonah]

Ultimately, this is the ONLY way to know if a PCT has been effective.

The rest of the recommendations are just guidelines that have worked for others. What will work for an individual, whether OTC or RC or Rx, will ultimately be only proven by bloodwork, not just by "feel". Someone could be "recovered", but end up with a testosterone level 100-200 points below normal. What works for 10 others may work for you also. Or may not.

The problem with SERMs... RC inconsistencies. I think many who have experienced the fluctuations in potency and quality have moved on to Rx Clomid vs. RC of anything else. Toremifene is a great SERM, even preferable to Clomid/Nolva, but only if it is actually toremifene. Plenty of RC users have found this to ring true.

In the past, I've been able to recover from a combination of OTC products even after using harsh compounds, but I found it better to plan a PCT that would extend longer than 4 weeks, as most of the OTC compounds were not as quick of a recovery (at least for me). However, as mentioned by harbonah, I confirmed things with bloodwork. It's just not worth the guessing game.

100% agree!
As stated above go with pharma over RC when you can. And get blood work each time I can personally attest to feeling recovered and having 263 ng/dl test level!< and that was on pharma grade nolva with a script.

[weakling]

Thanks for all the replies. I did go back and read the PCT thread by Eric... Great Info!

My PCT will be:

Torem 40/40/40/40
Sustain Alpha LV
TF2
Toco 8

I already have it all with the exception of torem. PS has the best price I can find but I've read good/bad reviews of product.

OK PCT is done. I'm going to pre cycle with Liver juice from PP.

Off topic but.... Now I need to put my on cycle plans together. With the products I'm going to run with (EPI Elite, Stano Elite and Trenazone) I would love to hear some suggestions. Based on what I have read I'm thinking(man I miss the androseries, they really took out the guess work) anyway I already have the below product on hand:

Tzone 2ml/2ml/2ml/2ml
Stano Elite 450mg/450mg/450mg/450mg
EPI Elite 30mg/30mg/30mg/30mg

too many questions I have..... cycle to short? do I need more EPI? etc?

And last I need to get my diet plan togehter but I have time seeing that I'm not going to start this run till Jan.

Thanks

- - - Updated - - -

100% agree!
As stated above go with pharma over RC when you can. And get blood work each time I can personally attest to feeling recovered and having 263 ng/dl test level!< and that was on pharma grade nolva with a script.

I will get tested before and after my run

[harbonah]

I would increase all 3 PH's to 6 weeks....or 2 weeks stano/tren then 6 weeks all 3. I like longer cycles though as you tend to keep more of the gains if your pct is on point.