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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freepressright View Post
    It has been my understanding that in the case of Pine Pollen and Royal Jelly, those are best to be taken daily since they contain amounts of actual testosterone and male hormones, whereas the other herbs are best cycled.

    Are there any on your list that you take daily or is everything in a cycle?
    Quote Originally Posted by Freepressright View Post
    It has been my understanding that in the case of Pine Pollen and Royal Jelly, those are best to be taken daily since they contain amounts of actual testosterone and male hormones, whereas the other herbs are best cycled.

    Are there any on your list that you take daily or is everything in a cycle?
    Pine pollen contains T, that is true, however taken orally as pollen in its raw form the T in it gets almost entirely consumed by the digestion process. The main benefit of pine pollen taken this way is the nutrients, vitamins, trace elements contained, which will raise T naturally. If you want the T containing benefits of pine pollen, you need to take it as an extract in the form of liquid tincture by absorbing it either through the mouth or anus. Doing this is akin to TRT though, exogenous T will always be suppressive, so IMO this makes little sense. I imagine the same is true for royal jelly, but i do not know about its content of T or vitamins etc.
    So as with CD's earlier explanation concerning which are T boosters and which do the same but via less direct means - such as via nutrient content or nootropic capabilities - if you really want to hit every avenue, then yes you could take pine pollen daily simply for its nutritional value, not as a tincture, while rotating all the other herbs that directly affect the HTPA axis. Bottom line though is that if you employ this level of detail (which i did for a while) you can get stressed by all the stuff you have to take and when, and it costs more and more. Better i think to just buy the list that CD has suggested and free your mind of the detail, just rotate the whole thing. It works. My last T level was over 900 natty, just those herbs + good mind and lifestyle, and i don't stress over them - ie if i go on holiday i'm not taking anything for that period.
    One thing not on that list is spirulina, i take that everyday, it is the most densely populated natural substance on earth with vitamins, minerals and protein and it's cheap.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cdsnuts View Post
    Back by popular demand....

    I've had more then several people reach out to me to revisit this topic, and seeing as the last time I dropped it here it was buried inside another thread, I'm going to make it a standalone so that it's easier to find for those that are interested.

    The key points are:

    Make sure your diet and training are on point.

    You're going to take one herb per day and then move on to the next one the following day. You're not going to want to spend more then a day or two on each herb. The whole point is to avoid the inevitable tolerance that your body will put up against any substance which is taken on too regular of a basis. By rotating your herbs in this fashion, you get that nice, juicy Testosterone boost each and every time you take it, as opposed to just the first couple times and then having the magic fade quickly.

    The only downside of this is there is a significant purchase up front, but when you cycle them properly, they last forever. You want to start out with a minimum of 7 herbs. When funds become available, purchase another one or two, and keep adding on. I personally rotate about 20+ different herbs (one each day) that brings me to a complete three week cycle. Once I get to the end, I start all over again. The best part is, you can do this indefinitely. It never stops producing results.....it's always fresh. The more herbs you have in the rotation, the stronger you can keep the response from each one of them because more time has passed since the last time you've taken it. I say you need 7 to start because you want to wait at minimum a week between taking each particular herb. The longer you wait, the better the response.

    By using these herbs in this fashion I've felt the best I've ever felt in my life. I feel like i'm "on" all the time. Well being, sex drive, performance and strength, muscle building are all kept naturally at the highest possible levels. It's a great feeling!

    This is my complete list in no particular order:

    Pine Pollen
    Pine pollen extract
    Ant Extract
    Cistanche
    He Shou Wu
    Schisandra
    Guduchi
    Maral Root.
    Shilajit pitch
    Tongkat Ali
    Rhodiola
    Eleuthero
    Ashwaganda
    Mucana
    Cordyceps
    Lions mane
    Tribulus (liftmode)
    Muira puama
    Catauba bark
    Butea superba
    Suma root extract
    Royal jelly
    maca (macapro)


    The majority of these can be grabbed at Super Man Herbs - Pine Pollen, Mushrooms, Shilajit and More . So far I haven't found another supplier that provides the quality of product that they do. This can be vouched for by many guys here that have already tried many of their herbs. Also, by opting in to their site, you get free stuff based on what you buy, and they regularly send out discounts to people on their mailing list. Win win.

    Once you're up and running and you have enough herbs in your stash, you can use this as a PCT or just to feel as good as you possibly can at all times. PCT can sometimes be a downer, depending on what you've been running. I've never had the PCT blues since starting this program. Granted, I don't run anything crazy or too suppressive, but it still sucks coming off of something that feels as good as R andro/androhard. Within days of getting back on this regimen, I feel great again! The best part is, it's all natural and non suppressive. Herbs build you up, not shut you down. Not to mention they are loaded with minerals, nutrients, phytochemicals and vitamins, so they're actually healthy to take as well.

    So for those of you that have been asking, here you go.
    CD - have you checked all those herbs raise T via means not including lowering DHT? I take most of those herbs on the list already but some i don't and wish to order, but only if they have nothing to do with 5AR etc. For example i recall MACA raises T partly through suppression of DHT. When i first put a list together of herbs to rotate, i literally knocked a third of them off for this reason after spending about 2 weeks researching each action. I cannot for the life of me remember which ones i discounted - apart from MACA, hence the question. I appreciate i may be being a little over cautious. I guess i'm still somewhat paranoid after recent experience............

  3. #13
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 1 (100%) Freepressright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by English View Post
    Pine pollen contains T, that is true, however taken orally as pollen in its raw form the T in it gets almost entirely consumed by the digestion process. The main benefit of pine pollen taken this way is the nutrients, vitamins, trace elements contained, which will raise T naturally. If you want the T containing benefits of pine pollen, you need to take it as an extract in the form of liquid tincture by absorbing it either through the mouth or anus. Doing this is akin to TRT though, exogenous T will always be suppressive, so IMO this makes little sense. I imagine the same is true for royal jelly, but i do not know about its content of T or vitamins etc.
    So as with CD's earlier explanation concerning which are T boosters and which do the same but via less direct means - such as via nutrient content or nootropic capabilities - if you really want to hit every avenue, then yes you could take pine pollen daily simply for its nutritional value, not as a tincture, while rotating all the other herbs that directly affect the HTPA axis. Bottom line though is that if you employ this level of detail (which i did for a while) you can get stressed by all the stuff you have to take and when, and it costs more and more. Better i think to just buy the list that CD has suggested and free your mind of the detail, just rotate the whole thing. It works. My last T level was over 900 natty, just those herbs + good mind and lifestyle, and i don't stress over them - ie if i go on holiday i'm not taking anything for that period.
    One thing not on that list is spirulina, i take that everyday, it is the most densely populated natural substance on earth with vitamins, minerals and protein and it's cheap.
    10-4 on the tincture. If you recall, I actually ran a log on it a while back and advocated for its use, considering the destruction of hormones by GI juices.

    Wesley also ran a mini log when I sent him a bottle.

  4. #14
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 1 (100%) Freepressright's Avatar
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    Common sense would dictate that you're correct that when you extract the hormones out of the pine pollen, you're technically feeding yourself an exogenous source of T and it would shut down natural production. But a number of people who use it seem to think otherwise because of it being a natural source.

    The guy over at anabolicmen.com and the Superman Herbs people say they don't believe it to be suppressive.

  5. #15
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 1 (100%) Freepressright's Avatar
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    A person had asked Ali over at Anabolic Men the following question:

    "Wouldn't taking an external form of testosterone reduce ones own production? The same as taking synthetic steroids reduce and ultimately eliminate LH production."


    To which he replied:

    "This was a major concern for me before I started experimenting with Royal Jelly and Pine Pollen as both contain actual testosterone.

    However after using both of the compounds for years now, my LH levels have only gone upwards.

    I believe that it's simply due to the fact that naturally occurring testosterone is not after all the same thing as synthetic testosterone which is made in the lab, even though their structure is similar."

  6. #16
    Moderator Feedback Score 0 Cdsnuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freepressright View Post
    It has been my understanding that in the case of Pine Pollen and Royal Jelly, those are best to be taken daily since they contain amounts of actual testosterone and male hormones, whereas the other herbs are best cycled.

    Are there any on your list that you take daily or is everything in a cycle?
    You are absolutely correct. Again, I'm used to dealing with a very, very different crowd. I try and keep things simple out of habit anymore as the more in detail I get the more I end up confusing alot of guys. This place as I had mentioned, is different in that regards.

    What I would personally take daily and have, for some periods of time are:

    Pine Pollen Powder and extract
    Royal Jelly
    Maca (is actually a food)
    Suma Root extract.

    And again, alot of the adaptogens are flexible in their dosing and producing the desired effects. Now, to clarify, when I say take these daily, I would take one of them daily for awhile and then switch to something else. So take PP daily for a month or so, then jump on the Royal jelly for a month, etc. You can certainly try them all at once on a daily basis, but I don't see the need to do that. So even these are being cycled, just not everyday.
    Total Male Optimization "People who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt those that are doing it"

  7. #17
    Moderator Feedback Score 0 Cdsnuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by English View Post
    CD - have you checked all those herbs raise T via means not including lowering DHT? I take most of those herbs on the list already but some i don't and wish to order, but only if they have nothing to do with 5AR etc. For example i recall MACA raises T partly through suppression of DHT. When i first put a list together of herbs to rotate, i literally knocked a third of them off for this reason after spending about 2 weeks researching each action. I cannot for the life of me remember which ones i discounted - apart from MACA, hence the question. I appreciate i may be being a little over cautious. I guess i'm still somewhat paranoid after recent experience............
    You're good on the maca....unless you really don't want to take it. I've never had any issues with it at all. Only positive experiences. And yes, everything on this list IS NOT a DHT inhibitor in anyway that would effect us negatively. Again, all positive responses to EVERYTHING on this list.
    Total Male Optimization "People who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt those that are doing it"

  8. #18
    Moderator Feedback Score 0 Cdsnuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freepressright View Post
    A person had asked Ali over at Anabolic Men the following question:

    "Wouldn't taking an external form of testosterone reduce ones own production? The same as taking synthetic steroids reduce and ultimately eliminate LH production."


    To which he replied:

    "This was a major concern for me before I started experimenting with Royal Jelly and Pine Pollen as both contain actual testosterone.

    However after using both of the compounds for years now, my LH levels have only gone upwards.

    I believe that it's simply due to the fact that naturally occurring testosterone is not after all the same thing as synthetic testosterone which is made in the lab, even though their structure is similar."
    I'm not sure how, or why, but the naturally occurring phyto-androgens seem to work WITH our bodies.....not against it. I've never heard of any type of suppression from using natural plant sources of these androgens. Just the opposite. The body seems to get stronger and better over time.
    Total Male Optimization "People who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt those that are doing it"

  9. #19
    Moderator Feedback Score 0 Cdsnuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by English View Post
    Pine pollen contains T, that is true, however taken orally as pollen in its raw form the T in it gets almost entirely consumed by the digestion process. The main benefit of pine pollen taken this way is the nutrients, vitamins, trace elements contained, which will raise T naturally. If you want the T containing benefits of pine pollen, you need to take it as an extract in the form of liquid tincture by absorbing it either through the mouth or anus. Doing this is akin to TRT though, exogenous T will always be suppressive, so IMO this makes little sense. I imagine the same is true for royal jelly, but i do not know about its content of T or vitamins etc.
    So as with CD's earlier explanation concerning which are T boosters and which do the same but via less direct means - such as via nutrient content or nootropic capabilities - if you really want to hit every avenue, then yes you could take pine pollen daily simply for its nutritional value, not as a tincture, while rotating all the other herbs that directly affect the HTPA axis. Bottom line though is that if you employ this level of detail (which i did for a while) you can get stressed by all the stuff you have to take and when, and it costs more and more. Better i think to just buy the list that CD has suggested and free your mind of the detail, just rotate the whole thing. It works. My last T level was over 900 natty, just those herbs + good mind and lifestyle, and i don't stress over them - ie if i go on holiday i'm not taking anything for that period.
    One thing not on that list is spirulina, i take that everyday, it is the most densely populated natural substance on earth with vitamins, minerals and protein and it's cheap.
    That is exactly why I recommend just cycling everything. You can practically "set it and forget it" and the results are ALWAYS amazing. ANYONE that has done this with a large amount of herbs in their cycle has completely changed the way they feel in the course of a few weeks. It's that powerful. And, the results continue to grow over time. It really is fantastic.

    About spirulina.....definitely a good one, and one that I take daily along with chlorella. I take them after my workouts as they are LOADED with vitamins and minerals not to mention protein. Definitely a few good add ons here if you can afford it.
    Total Male Optimization "People who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt those that are doing it"

  10. #20
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 WesleyInman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cdsnuts View Post
    Honestly Wes.....for someone who is on TRT and runs as many PH's as you do, this isn't really going to be your bag my man. Unless you were planning on jumping off of everything and trying to do a hard restart.....this simply doesn't make sense for you.
    For sure. I am thinking for a few of my clients tbh. I have other options that work, but wouldn't mind another option if cost effective. Never personally used such a combo, so I am all ears!
    National Sponsored Lightweight Strongman Competitor
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