Heart Health

[Jelisej]

I take around 10-12k iu Vitamin D a day during the winter.

10-15 minutes of sun exposure can produce 3,000 - 20,000 iu depending on intensity of the sunlight (from what I've read). So I just take it during the winter when the sun is a bitch.

I would say that even 10k is a bit over the top.
As for sun- darker people need more of it. Problem with absorbtion of vitamin D from sun is- skin needs natural oil from body, olive oil helps as well- on other hand people going in swimming pool (chlorinated water) will have little absorbtion of vit D even if they are on blasing sun- Dr Mercola said that it can mess up vit D absorbtion for up to 2 days- I dont know if thats correct.
Vitamin D becames deficient in people with some hormonal issues and other issues in that case it can be dosed in high doses, but once issues are solved dosage should decrease. Personaly, I eat home-made bacon which has a lot of vitamin D.

[h2s]

Vitamin D becames deficient in people with some hormonal issues and other issues in that case it can be dosed in high doses, but once issues are solved dosage should decrease. Personaly, I eat home-made bacon which has a lot of vitamin D.

That seems a bit like "What came first, the chicken or the egg" to me. Vitamin D levels being low could have very well influenced their hormonal issues, as it seems to me Vitamin D's importance is quite clear, at least in terms of testosterone:

Effect of vitamin D supplementation on testosterone levels in men

Abstract
The male reproductive tract has been identified as a target tissue for vitamin D, and previous data suggest an association of 25-hydroxyvitamin D [25(OH)D] with testosterone levels in men. We therefore aimed to evaluate whether vitamin D supplementation influences testosterone levels in men. Healthy overweight men undergoing a weight reduction program who participated in a randomized controlled trial were analyzed for testosterone levels. The entire study included 200 nondiabetic subjects, of whom 165 participants (54 men) completed the trial. Participants received either 83 μg (3,332 IU) vitamin D daily for 1 year (n = 31) or placebo (n =2 3). Initial 25(OH)D concentrations were in the deficiency range (< 50 nmol/l) and testosterone values were at the lower end of the reference range (9.09-55.28 nmol/l for males aged 20-49 years) in both groups. Mean circulating 25(OH)D concentrations increased significantly by 53.5 nmol/l in the vitamin D group, but remained almost constant in the placebo group. Compared to baseline values, a significant increase in total testosterone levels (from 10.7 ± 3.9 nmol/l to 13.4 ± 4.7 nmol/l; p < 0.001), bioactive testosterone (from 5.21 ± 1.87 nmol/l to 6.25 ± 2.01 nmol/l; p = 0.001), and free testosterone levels (from 0.222 ± 0.080 nmol/l to 0.267 ± 0.087 nmol/l; p = 0.001) were observed in the vitamin D supplemented group. By contrast, there was no significant change in any testosterone measure in the placebo group. Our results suggest that vitamin D supplementation might increase testosterone levels. Further randomized controlled trials are warranted to confirm this hypothesis.

© Georg Thieme Verlag KG Stuttgart · New York.

Effect of vitamin D supplementation on testos... [Horm Metab Res. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

[ryansm]

A glass of red wine every night (6 ounces not 12) has helped boost my hdl and lower trigs

[O_RYAN_007]

A glass of red wine every night (6 ounces not 12) has helped boost my hdl and lower trigs

Wouldn't taking resver (SA or something similar) do the same thing? Just curious...

[Jelisej]

[QUOTE=h2s;3382]That seems a bit like "What came first, the chicken or the egg" to me. Vitamin D levels being low could have very well influenced their hormonal issues, as it seems to me Vitamin D's importance is quite clear, at least in terms of testosterone:

Effect of vitamin D supplementation on testosterone levels in men
Your study says what we already know, that vit d boosts testosterone, but does not tell as anything why these people had test. and vit. d deficiency, and nothing about hormonal pathways.
Well it can be both ways but in majority of cases vitamin d is one of the last victims, if I remeber correctly in "pregnenolone steal" one of the victims is vitamin d.
One interesting post by Jack Kruse: "if you live a life in the modern world you are in survival mode (living in the cortisol pathway of oxidation) shunting the already low amount of pregnenolone your cells can make to cortisol at the sake of making progesterone. Progesterone is the base hormone for the testosterone, estrogen, DHEA, etc (the hormones of fertility)……..The more we shunt to survival mode hormones the less fertility ones we make. More survival path activation of cortisol makes the cell more oxidized the faster the cell ages…….Moreover, the more oxidized the cell becomes the more Vitamin D has to be used to offset this increased oxidation by the immune system so Vitamin D levels also falls with oxidation. "

Bit more from Kruse:
Questions :
1. Is there a dietary RDA for vitamin D if steroidogenesis and sun exposure are optimal?
2. If there is significant exogenous vitamin D, thru either diet or supplements, does the fit D level give you any helpful information about steroidogenesis in general?
3.What would be the top x suspects within otherwise healthy population?
Answers:
1. but it varies depending upon other variables......as they vary.
2.yes....Vitamin D tells us about the follow thru of the steroid pathways. if its low at the end it tells you there is a proximal problem in the system too.
3.1. Pregnenlone steal from thyroid disease is number one
3.2. Any type of stress, emotional, physiological, metabolic, psychological, mental, or biological, or environmental
3.3 inflammation from any source.


P.S.- Chicken was first.

[h2s]

I am not sure he is stating anything concrete there though, it states why a poor hormonal situation could drive down Vitamin D levels, but he doesn't directly state if there is a RDA to Vitamin D intake. My point is it very well could be the other way around. I have no idea to be honest, in a random sample of 100 people with low vitamin d and low testosterone or endocrine function, you could possibly have a 50/50 cause-effect difference. I think my prior post implies too much emphasis on the Vitamin D in particular (although some emphasis was purposely displayed). My point is that poor nutrition in general, vitamin D being a strong participant, can be the cause of low endocrine function as well. So it is hard to say that the poor hormonal function always comes first to deficiencies in any vitamin.


P.S. Where did your Chicken come from, lol.

[Jelisej]

I am not sure he is stating anything concrete there though, it states why a poor hormonal situation could drive down Vitamin D levels, but he doesn't directly state if there is a RDA to Vitamin D intake. My point is it very well could be the other way around. I have no idea to be honest, in a random sample of 100 people with low vitamin d and low testosterone or endocrine function, you could possibly have a 50/50 cause-effect difference. I think my prior post implies too much emphasis on the Vitamin D in particular (although some emphasis was purposely displayed). My point is that poor nutrition in general, vitamin D being a strong participant, can be the cause of low endocrine function as well. So it is hard to say that the poor hormonal function always comes first to deficiencies in any vitamin.


P.S. Where did your Chicken come from, lol.

Ah, I dont disagree with you, in my previous post maybe I sounded as I critisised you, but thats incorrect, you do deserve a lot of credit for finding some good studies.

AS FOR TOPIC- definitely vitamin d- and hormones deficiency correlation can go both ways, (after all vit d is also hormone) only I think its slightly less common that vit d deficiency causes hormonal deficiency than other way round- this is asuming that vit d intake was adequate (if we take people with inadequate vit d "consumption" in account as well- than numbers will point other way round). As for study- it is good study, but unfortunately it does not tell us more- why were subject deficient of vit d. why did they use 3.3 K of vit d (not more or less?) and when did both vit d and test, start raising and where it platoed, what happened afterwoods.
I've seen that people get boost of up to 150 ng/dl of tt, and it was shorter period than year, and I dont recall dosage, though I'm pretty sure it was less than 5k.

As for Kruse, I dont rate him that highly myself, only I found this few lines very informative

P.S.- chicken came from amoeba

[Infamy]

On the topic of vitamin d, although I don't doubt it's necessity in steroidogenesis, I would be very cautious on using high dose vit d on a steroid cycle.

The reason I say this is that I was interested in the effects of steroids and potential kidney damage. Although there is little to suggest that an otherwise healthy person drinking plenty of water should get kidney damage on steroids directly, there are indirect pathways by which the steroids can contribute to kidney damage.

One is via excess vit d. Vitamin d increases calcium absorption. Unfotunately most steroids (tren, test, deca) increase mineral and water retention (remember that water retention is not solely related to extra cellular water retention but in the case of steroids like tren, intra cellular water retention making the muscles look bigger and fuller).

So the combination of steroids plus excess vit d leads to increased calcium in the body. Even if dietary intake is within the normal rda (usually touted to be 1 gram per day). Calcium is excreted via the kidneys and too much calcium leads to blockages and kidney stones. Even without the formation of kidney stones a high calcium level can cause kidney damage. Although sometimes this damage is reversible, sometimes it isnt. The effect is exacerbated for those taking multivitamins as they tend to have doses of minerals way in excess of what you need. Off cycle this is a problem, on cycle this is dangerous.

This could be one of the mechanisms by which tren can cause kidney toxicity (along with high bp, inadequate water intake etc).

A words of warning to those that believe cranberry extract can help. It doesn't and perversely makes things worse. Cranberry extract is high in oxalate which in turn can increase the risk of kidney stones.

There is another route for kidney damage related to a genetic condition whereby a missing gene coding for a particular enzyme responsible for glucordination amongst other things leaves high levels of toxic by products onthe kidneys to be filtered and causes kidney damage. I've included this comment for completeness but it was this vitaminosis of vit d which I wanted to warn people of.

As a rule, on cycle, I would use little to no vit d and use multi vitamins very sparingly - certainly not every day.

Bear in mind off cycle high vit d intake will also cause kidney problems although there will be more tolerance to it without steroids in the system.

[h2s]

Great post Infamy, couple questions:

1. I have completely sworn off all forms of multi vitamins for some time now. I was investigating them alot to find "the best" and concluded with "don't bother, improve diet." With that said, I still choose certain individual Vitamins that I do choose to use, and a D/K combo is part of that decision. What amounts of Vitamin D do you consider an excess? (Let's assume off cycle). I am currently take 5000iu probably EOD (Up to about 2 months ago, was ED). Are we looking at too much in your opinion?

2. Now lets switch back to "on cycle." At what point should supplementation cease when approaching a cycle. Is it advisable to simply stop once the cycle begins, or would someone want to cease usage for some time prior? When would be an appropriate time in your opinion to resume supplementation.

[BR99TAL]

Wouldn't taking resver (SA or something similar) do the same thing? Just curious...

Mechanism of cardioprotection by resveratrol, ... [Int J Mol Med. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI