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  1. #41
    Established Member Feedback Score 3 (100%) tallstraw's Avatar
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    That last paragraph is exactly why I'm asking. I've seen so many conflicting answers and schools of thought. I'll pass both the power protocol and your advice unto him. I think it'd be best like proposed if he gets off. So I'll tell him that one first. If he just isn't having it, then I'll move to option B. And give him your advice. I'll tell him 1250iu E4d for a or 4 pins. Then taper back down to the recommended protocol of 100iu ED, or 250e3d. Thanks both of you, this gives me a 2 pronged approach incase he tries to say no to the first I have a fallback for him.

  2. #42
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 0 Jelisej's Avatar
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    I think Wesley hit the nail: "There are a million ways to do it, and more then one way works. I would say in my experience there is no factual way to put a number on an indvidual. My very own endocrinologists for years relied on my advice and "suggestions" to decide dosaging. It is virtually unknown. "

    The exact dosage of HCG for each individual is different, and most effective protocol itself can be different, for some people more frequent like 100 IU daily works better, for some less frequent but bit higher doses work better. Most common is 250- 300 IU 3X a week is what suits most of people, and for a reason- as most effective dose of HCG is somewhere in between 250- 300 IU, adn there are some research that show that 500 IU is not really more effective than 250 IU, and from anecdotal experience higher doses of HCG can raise progesterone too much and it can lead to depletion of pregnenolone. So personally I think any dose over 500 IU is not really needed IMO, if testicles dont work it will take them time to start working. If your friend is in middle of cycle than he should go with usual 250-300 IU, if he is at end he can run HCG solo for a while and then go for extended PCT.

    I personally dont like idea of using HCG in PCT or combining HCG and clomid as pituary will not be working as long as HCG is in system, so basically on HCG you're still shut.

  3. #43
    Sponsor Feedback Score 0 O.N.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jelisej View Post
    I think Wesley hit the nail: "There are a million ways to do it, and more then one way works. I would say in my experience there is no factual way to put a number on an indvidual. My very own endocrinologists for years relied on my advice and "suggestions" to decide dosaging. It is virtually unknown. "

    The exact dosage of HCG for each individual is different, and most effective protocol itself can be different, for some people more frequent like 100 IU daily works better, for some less frequent but bit higher doses work better. Most common is 250- 300 IU 3X a week is what suits most of people, and for a reason- as most effective dose of HCG is somewhere in between 250- 300 IU, adn there are some research that show that 500 IU is not really more effective than 250 IU, and from anecdotal experience higher doses of HCG can raise progesterone too much and it can lead to depletion of pregnenolone. So personally I think any dose over 500 IU is not really needed IMO, if testicles dont work it will take them time to start working. If your friend is in middle of cycle than he should go with usual 250-300 IU, if he is at end he can run HCG solo for a while and then go for extended PCT.

    I personally dont like idea of using HCG in PCT or combining HCG and clomid as pituary will not be working as long as HCG is in system, so basically on HCG you're still shut.
    HCG isn't suppressive have a read here: http://www.bodybuildingforums.com.au/pct-post-cycle-therapy-oct-on-cycle-therapy/4981-epistane-pct-2.html#post91537

    Also you do not want to be playing with the HCG dose too much on cycle 250IU 2x per week once compounded in the system is equal to 94% of a normal males LH release.
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  4. #44
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 0 Jelisej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by O.N. View Post
    HCG isn't suppressive have a read here: http://www.bodybuildingforums.com.au/pct-post-cycle-therapy-oct-on-cycle-therapy/4981-epistane-pct-2.html#post91537

    Also you do not want to be playing with the HCG dose too much on cycle 250IU 2x per week once compounded in the system is equal to 94% of a normal males LH release.
    HCG does more than you think, it not just simulates LH (and FSH a bit) it has a profound effect on number of other hormones- it fasten up thyroid and adrenal etc- and one of downsides is that it aromatise a lot (depending on functionality of testicles) so it does create negative feedback. Now you may say that clomid will fix that but- it will not, as otherwise we would use clomid during cycle itself, but unfortunately it just does not work that way.
    In any case- I would not suggest using HCG during PCT.

  5. #45
    Established Member Feedback Score 3 (100%) tallstraw's Avatar
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    I follow the no hcg in pct as well. To each their own. I run it up to the week before cessation. Let it clear and start PCT.

    Tanner wasn't having thr steroids bit lol. So i ordered some hcg for my winter bulk cycle I'm gonna run. And got some for him as well..fuckin tard

    Gonna do 750 e4d for 3 pins. Then 100iu ED. That's what I'd feel safest doing. So i passed that schedule to him.

  6. #46
    Sponsor Feedback Score 0 O.N.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jelisej View Post
    HCG does more than you think, it not just simulates LH (and FSH a bit) it has a profound effect on number of other hormones- it fasten up thyroid and adrenal etc- and one of downsides is that it aromatise a lot (depending on functionality of testicles) so it does create negative feedback. Now you may say that clomid will fix that but- it will not, as otherwise we would use clomid during cycle itself, but unfortunately it just does not work that way.
    In any case- I would not suggest using HCG during PCT.
    I think you have a misunderstanding of how the drug works it doesn't stimulate the production of LH and FSH, it acts in place of LH since it is similar to LH in its action. HCG does aromatize slightly more in favor of estrogen than testosterone production, for this you should use an AI.

    You suggestion of clomid also shows that you do not understand this drug very well either it is a SERM (selective estrogen receptor modulator) meaning it blocks estrogen selectively in certain receptors....it doesn't remove estrogen from the body, so any excess estrogen caused by your use of steroids or HCG will not be removed from the body with the use of a SERM, this is when an AI should be used to remove estrogen from the body....compared to a SERM which simply shuffles it around to other places causes you to have excess estrogen and thus the many toxic side effects associated to SERM usage.

    Quote Originally Posted by tallstraw View Post
    I follow the no hcg in pct as well. To each their own. I run it up to the week before cessation. Let it clear and start PCT.

    Tanner wasn't having thr steroids bit lol. So i ordered some hcg for my winter bulk cycle I'm gonna run. And got some for him as well..fuckin tard

    Gonna do 750 e4d for 3 pins. Then 100iu ED. That's what I'd feel safest doing. So i passed that schedule to him.
    HCG can be used for performance enhancement it's a sports athletes friend in this regard if you know when you are going to be drug tested you can use HCG at other times to boost testosterone levels quickly to about 140%, this is also a reason porn stars use it for bigger cum loads. You should be continuing HCG for about 2 weeks post your last injection as the steroids are still very much active and suppressing your production of testosterone, as an example 500mg test e will take about 33 days to clear your system, if you continue HCG for 14 days of this 33 day period when the test e has almost left the system the HCG will be almost cleared of the system too.

    When your testosterone level takes a small dive and you are not using HCG the bodies natural response to this will be to release LH and thus your natural testosterone production will begin again....this will be a switch over period with minimal to no downtime.

    As an example if your natural testosterone level is say 25nmol/L and HCG is making you have a level of 30nmol/L the minute you withdraw from HCG use and the level drops below 25nmol/L your natural LH will release as the HCG is no longer active or working.

    This has been done many times over and is the best way to have a simple transitional period from steroids to natural production.

    Also HCG does have a performance advantage as said before as an example if HCG makes you have 30nmol/L then you inject 500mg test e per week and this gives you 60nmol/L will now you have 2 sources of testosterone in your body 30nmol/L + 60nmol/L

    HCG can be compared to using GH releasing peptides, they stimulate the production of GH in high levels once you stop taking them the body then releases it's normal level of GH once again.

    LH is no different HCG takes it's place in the role of testosterone production, once withdrawn and the levels drop low enough to signal the brain to release LH then LH will be released.
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  7. #47
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 0 Jelisej's Avatar
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    O.N. you misread my previous post- I did not say that HCG stimulates LH, I said it simulates LH which is completely different, also I did not make any suggestion regarding clomid neither described its action so I dont know why you concluded that I dont understand this drug very well.


    "LH is no different HCG takes it's place in the role of testosterone production, once withdrawn and the levels drop low enough to signal the brain to release LH then LH will be released. " -now this is what I been saying earlier, and this is reason why HCG has no place in PCT (because pituary will not signal testes to make testosterone via LH as long as HCG is present).

  8. #48
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 Bucks's Avatar
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    HCG - Unraveled: HCG Guide by Eric Potratz

    HCG , Tada , Viagra, AH and Trest! I can say with that combo I'm a legend in my own mind and the girl I'm in bed with! LOL.

    I just wish I was famous and had that line of rats outside my travel bus. You you and you, Next! LOL.

  9. #49
    Sponsor Feedback Score 0 O.N.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jelisej View Post
    O.N. you misread my previous post- I did not say that HCG stimulates LH, I said it simulates LH which is completely different, also I did not make any suggestion regarding clomid neither described its action so I dont know why you concluded that I dont understand this drug very well.


    "LH is no different HCG takes it's place in the role of testosterone production, once withdrawn and the levels drop low enough to signal the brain to release LH then LH will be released. " -now this is what I been saying earlier, and this is reason why HCG has no place in PCT (because pituary will not signal testes to make testosterone via LH as long as HCG is present).
    Sorry sleepy eyes and over worked...lol

    I'll describe exactly when HCG is required up until and why but then i will throw something else in there to think about:

    1. Whilst on cycle HCG should be used at a dosage of 250IU 2x per week, many years ago after much study and comparisons i worked out that this dosage once it compounds and builds up in the body over several weeks is equal to 94% of a normal males LH output. So this dose is the most optimal being very closely matched to "a healthy male" not every one is healthy but this is considered normal.

    Once you stop taking steroids eg 500mg testosterone enanthate per week this ester "enanthate" at this dosage "500mg" will take roughly 33 days to clear your system - thus HCG should be used for 14 days past your last injection whilst the esters are clearing the body (and still suppressing the natural production of testosterone), for the remaining 19 days HCG will clear along with the enanthate and a recovery will be successful.

    2. HCG stimulates the production of testosterone, if you are a normal male and produce say 25nmol/L of testosterone right now and then start taking say 700-750IU of HCG per week your testosterone level will increase from 25nmol/L to say 40nmol/L, if you then discontinue the use of HCG when it no longer has a stimulation effect on testosterone production and the level then drops below 25nmol/L the brain will sense this and immediately release LH in response to bring the level and maintain the level at 25nmol/L.

    There is no mechanism within the body to respond in any different manner, the testes have maintained a normal function, the leydig cells are all stimulated and responsive, none are desensitized to LH. So this is why HCG isn't a bad thing and can certainly be used into PCT.

    The one thing i can agree on is that HCG should not be abused in that it should not be used in too higher doses for too long which can then overstimulate and damage the leydig cells.
    Last edited by O.N.; 10-28-2014 at 03:44 AM.
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  10. #50
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 0 Jelisej's Avatar
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    You have some good points, on some I agree on some I have different solution, and on HCG in PCT- we can agree to disagree.

    1. On number of research for HCG it seems that 250- 300 IU is where it is most effective overall and from lot of feedback in (vast?) majority of cases is enough during cycle, and on top of being effective is quite safe dose. Now- were we dont agree is frequency- 2X a week is not frequent enough, 3X is a minimum and reason being is- active half life is not as long as some people think, its around 1.5 half day, altough it can vary a lot.
    There are some people who got better results with more frequent injection and smaller doses, but it seems to me that its minority, and from personal experience 3X 250 IU worked much better than daily dosing.

    Also, on top of preventing leydig cells obliteration HCG brings out lot more good stuff, it increases metabolic rate (which also makes cycle more effective) by stimulating thyroid and adrenals, it brings out a number of other hormones in play which comes with many merits (it has positive effect on libido as Bucks said) and it even increases level of oxytocin

    I absolutely agree that HCG should be taken until PCT and if one is using long esters he should continue to use HCG while after stopping AAS- altough I always suggest to "bridge" with shorter ester e.g after stopping testosterone enthanate one can use test propionate for another 4-5 weeks, which makes everything easier, including calculating start of PCT- which is actually hard to calculate, and rarely people get it right, very often people finish they PCT before they should
    even start it.


    As for HCG in PCT- there is absolutely not a single reason why should one use it during PCT, as clomid itself will raise LH, plus other benefits including refreshing receptors etc...

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