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  1. #11
    Moderator Feedback Score 0 Cdsnuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synaesthesia View Post
    It is a powerful process, to say the least.
    Total Male Optimization "People who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt those that are doing it"

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    Hey CD. Been taking 5a-dhp, preg and thyroid med (not perscription) and stopped the herbs and my energy is still low from hypothyroidism. My waking temp is 97.0. Will the herb cycle fix thyroid and give me the energy or should try and fix the thyroid.

  3. #13
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 TubZy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by delsolrob View Post
    please post studies regarding fasting protocols and their benefits. I have only seen studies that suggest the benefits are minimal and did not last beyond the fasting period.

    I've also read of salt deficiencies and other complications of these types of fasting.

    Additionally, spikes in cortisol...all issues associated with cortisol spiking

    If there is information that I have not seen, then please share. But, as far as I've been aware, these methods have been extremely controversial due to lack of data.
    The cortisol issue is the reason why I'm not the biggest fan for fasting, not saying it doesn't have purpose though.

    Same goes for keto diet, as the constant elevated levels of cortisol as well. Which makes sense why body temp and thyroid take a hit on ketogenic diet.

  4. #14
    Moderator Feedback Score 0 Cdsnuts's Avatar
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    Paleo Diet + Carb Back loading Question

    Quote Originally Posted by TubZy View Post
    The cortisol issue is the reason why I'm not the biggest fan for fasting, not saying it doesn't have purpose though.

    Same goes for keto diet, as the constant elevated levels of cortisol as well. Which makes sense why body temp and thyroid take a hit on ketogenic diet.
    That's why when you add an back-loading it smooths everything out.

    And a rise in cortisol during a water fast is acute and not chronic. There's a big difference there.

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  5. #15
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 TubZy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cdsnuts View Post
    That's why when you add an back-loading it smooths everything out.

    And a rise in cortisol during a water fast is acute and not chronic. There's a big difference there.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
    Yeah, backloading would be better. Although the bigger issue is even with backloading, you are training in a severely stressed state from being in a low blood sugar state all day. When blood sugar is low, cortisol has to kick in to keep stable and can rise very easily especially when there is nothing their to dampen it, like glucose.

    What do you mean in terms of acute versus chronic? I think some of the posts that were referenced could be anywhere from 3 days to 30 days or so right?

  6. #16
    Moderator Feedback Score 0 Cdsnuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TubZy View Post
    Yeah, backloading would be better. Although the bigger issue is even with backloading, you are training in a severely stressed state from being in a low blood sugar state all day. When blood sugar is low, cortisol has to kick in to keep stable and can rise very easily especially when there is nothing their to dampen it, like glucose.

    What do you mean in terms of acute versus chronic? I think some of the posts that were referenced could be anywhere from 3 days to 30 days or so right?
    When backloading, you're getting anywhere from 300-600 or more grams of carbs per loading period. That is typically enough to not only replenish glycogen stores from being depleted during your prior work out, but it is enough to carry you through until the next work out period the following day. It's not like you're training in a completely ketogenic state.

    I've never had issues training, and training hard, unless I've under calculated the amount of carbs I had on the previous nights backload. Then you can feel the difference. I've actually hit some PR's during my backloading time. It's all about dialing it in for YOU. Everybody is different. You just have to tweak it until it works. There is a pretty big learning curve in the beginning, but once you get it, it's a pretty amazing and effective technique. I obviously love it and have had great success with it. Alot of guys will bail on it before getting right, unfortunately.

    The benefits gained from an extended water fast FAR outweigh any downsides from a temporary increase in cortisol. Especially the guys that are completely gunked up with pharmaceuticals, exogenous hormones, xenoestrogens and a lifetimes worth of metabolic waste. The negative impact these waste products have in regards to optimal cellular functioning is astounding.

    Let's just say, for arguments sake, that cortisol remained high for two weeks.....or even a month. Compared to your lifetime, percentage wise, it's nothing. Again, you have to look at it in terms of lifetime benefits over any short term negatives. This is why it's considered "acute." You have to look at this holistically over the long term as that is where your lasting results are going to be.
    Last edited by Cdsnuts; 03-01-2017 at 06:51 PM.
    Total Male Optimization "People who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt those that are doing it"

  7. #17
    Moderator Feedback Score 0 Cdsnuts's Avatar
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    This article hit my feed today. Great timing. It touches on all aspects of detoxification.

    How to Tell if You Have a Healthy Brain Steve Pavlina
    Total Male Optimization "People who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt those that are doing it"

  8. #18
    Moderator Feedback Score 0 Cdsnuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmoore View Post
    Hey CD. Been taking 5a-dhp, preg and thyroid med (not perscription) and stopped the herbs and my energy is still low from hypothyroidism. My waking temp is 97.0. Will the herb cycle fix thyroid and give me the energy or should try and fix the thyroid.
    One thing I try and pass on in regards to the healing process is to not try and focus too much on certain things. You have to treat the body as a whole and as the body heals, so will all other nagging issues.

    If you must, you can include an extra iodine supplement which increases thyroid output naturally: Iodine Total Male Optimization

    Aside from this, just focus on the whole protocol in general. These things will eventually work themselves out in due time.
    Total Male Optimization "People who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt those that are doing it"

  9. #19
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 TubZy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cdsnuts View Post
    When backloading, you're getting anywhere from 300-600 or more grams of carbs per loading period. That is typically enough to not only replenish glycogen stores from being depleted during your prior work out, but it is enough to carry you through until the next work out period the following day. It's not like you're training in a completely ketogenic state.

    I've never had issues training, and training hard, unless I've under calculated the amount of carbs I had on the previous nights backload. Then you can feel the difference. I've actually hit some PR's during my backloading time. It's all about dialing it in for YOU. Everybody is different. You just have to tweak it until it works. There is a pretty big learning curve in the beginning, but once you get it, it's a pretty amazing and effective technique. I obviously love it and have had great success with it. Alot of guys will bail on it before getting right, unfortunately.

    The benefits gained from an extended water fast FAR outweigh any downsides from a temporary increase in cortisol. Especially the guys that are completely gunked up with pharmaceuticals, exogenous hormones, xenoestrogens and a lifetimes worth of metabolic waste. The negative impact these waste products have in regards to optimal cellular functioning is astounding.

    Let's just say, for arguments sake, that cortisol remained high for two weeks.....or even a month. Compared to your lifetime, percentage wise, it's nothing. Again, you have to look at it in terms of lifetime benefits over any short term negatives. This is why it's considered "acute." You have to look at this holistically over the long term as that is where your lasting results are going to be.
    Yeah, I think that could be possible although it depends on carbs in what form rice, sugars, fats etc. I think that could play a factor too. Can glycogen reserves still stay full up to 24 hours though? I never heard of that, and I thought the mechanism of carb backloading was to soak as much carbs as you can post workout, which would mean your glycogen reserves would even deplete quicker from the liver due to the muscle soaking it up post workout.

    You know me lol, I just can't find like any scientific evidence on backloading. The only stuff I can find is it being promoted by Dangerously Hardcore. If you come across any studies or have them on you, I would be curious to read them, if it's not a hassle.

    Well, the thing with keto is that if you are actually in a ketogenic state (burning ketones) and fully adapted you aren't really "starving" yourself since your liver is now converting fats into fatty acids and ketones for fuel to the cells. So once adapted, cortisol levels would stay elevated in a chronic way (to support blood sugar) as it's a back up mechanism (from glucose) compared to say backloading where you would be doing cortisol spikes (acute).

    I did try carb backloading for a while, I did actually like the anabolic effects of it, but just seemed to stressful during the day especially trying to do mental tasks and critical thinking, at least for me. You are right, everyone is different, so if someone had a high metabolism, carb backloading wouldn't really be ideal as you would burn up calories/carbs much quicker than someone whose is lower.

    Yeah, I definitely think short term fasting has a purpose, like you said if you are doing it to detox from something in particular like a toxin it definitely could be useful, but again there are other things that could also do that like activated charcoal and cascara. So it all depends on the individual.

    Charcoal can also lower endotoxin in the gut which would lower serotonin leading to even lower cortisol. It is actually pro metabolic and can kill fungi and bacteria along with even crossing the blood brain barrier. It is used universally in hospitals for overdoses of drugs, chemicals, bacteria etc.

    Effectiveness of delayed activated charcoal administration in simulated paracetamol (acetaminophen) overdose

    Oral activated charcoal is often used to treat drug overdose. Compared with other gastrointestinal decontamination methods, such as gastric lavage, induction of emesis or whole bowel irrigation, it is simple to administer and relatively safe. Its efficacy in preventing drug absorption has been studied in vivo for a wide variety of agents; these studies have recently been subject to detailed review [1]. Large reductions in drug absorption occur when activated charcoal is administered soon after drug ingestion. For example, paracetamol absorption can be reduced by 83% by activated charcoal administered within five minutes [2]. Activated charcoal appears at least as effective as other gastrointestinal decontamination methods when used one hour after simulated drug overdose [3].

    Studies with activated charcoal in the treatment of drug overdosage using the pig as an animal model | SpringerLink
    Oral Activated Charcoal Prevents Experimental Cerebral Malaria in Mice and in a Randomized Controlled Clinical Trial in Man Did Not Interfere with the Pharmacokinetics of Parenteral Artesunate
    Last edited by TubZy; 03-03-2017 at 01:05 AM.

  10. #20
    Moderator Feedback Score 0 Cdsnuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TubZy View Post
    Yeah, I think that could be possible although it depends on carbs in what form rice, sugars, fats etc. I think that could play a factor too. Can glycogen reserves still stay full up to 24 hours though? I never heard of that, and I thought the mechanism of carb backloading was to soak as much carbs as you can post workout, which would mean your glycogen reserves would even deplete quicker from the liver due to the muscle soaking it up post workout.

    You know me lol, I just can't find like any scientific evidence on backloading. The only stuff I can find is it being promoted by Dangerously Hardcore. If you come across any studies or have them on you, I would be curious to read them, if it's not a hassle.

    Well, the thing with keto is that if you are actually in a ketogenic state (burning ketones) and fully adapted you aren't really "starving" yourself since your liver is now converting fats into fatty acids and ketones for fuel to the cells. So once adapted, cortisol levels would stay elevated in a chronic way (to support blood sugar) as it's a back up mechanism (from glucose) compared to say backloading where you would be doing cortisol spikes (acute).

    I did try carb backloading for a while, I did actually like the anabolic effects of it, but just seemed to stressful during the day especially trying to do mental tasks and critical thinking, at least for me. You are right, everyone is different, so if someone had a high metabolism, carb backloading wouldn't really be ideal as you would burn up calories/carbs much quicker than someone whose is lower.

    Yeah, I definitely think short term fasting has a purpose, like you said if you are doing it to detox from something in particular like a toxin it definitely could be useful, but again there are other things that could also do that like activated charcoal and cascara. So it all depends on the individual.

    Charcoal can also lower endotoxin in the gut which would lower serotonin leading to even lower cortisol. It is actually pro metabolic and can kill fungi and bacteria along with even crossing the blood brain barrier. It is used universally in hospitals for overdoses of drugs, chemicals, bacteria etc.

    Effectiveness of delayed activated charcoal administration in simulated paracetamol (acetaminophen) overdose

    Oral activated charcoal is often used to treat drug overdose. Compared with other gastrointestinal decontamination methods, such as gastric lavage, induction of emesis or whole bowel irrigation, it is simple to administer and relatively safe. Its efficacy in preventing drug absorption has been studied in vivo for a wide variety of agents; these studies have recently been subject to detailed review [1]. Large reductions in drug absorption occur when activated charcoal is administered soon after drug ingestion. For example, paracetamol absorption can be reduced by 83% by activated charcoal administered within five minutes [2]. Activated charcoal appears at least as effective as other gastrointestinal decontamination methods when used one hour after simulated drug overdose [3].

    Studies with activated charcoal in the treatment of drug overdosage using the pig as an animal model | SpringerLink
    Oral Activated Charcoal Prevents Experimental Cerebral Malaria in Mice and in a Randomized Controlled Clinical Trial in Man Did Not Interfere with the Pharmacokinetics of Parenteral Artesunate
    I have all of the science break down from Kiefer. So for science minded individuals, that is where you're going to want to look. It works for me as advertised.

    I had no trouble during the day staying carb free at all because of the large amount of carbs I would smash the night before. None what so ever. So regardless of what "studies" say, I take real world experience over what someone in a lab says, who is running an experiment based on variable inputs and NOT on themselves. My experience and the personal experience of others means more to me. Simply because it's real world outcomes...

    You know....one thing I've noticed over the years about people who are very science minded and focus on the minutia of detail, while being brilliant, alot of times they miss the Forrest for the trees. They're TOO focused on the details to notice the bigger picture. That's where they go wrong. I'm trying to think of a clever example here to illustrate my point.... one escapes me right now. But lets say you're looking at the planet from space. You can see the whole planet. You can see what is happening with the continents, with the oceans, with the weather, etc. I get a snap shot of the WHOLE thing. If you take a telescope from a satellite and focus down on the surface of the planet, you can see what is going on with individuals on that planet. But just because you can see them, and what they are doing, you no longer have the correct view as to what is going on in the bigger picture. Not the best example, but most of the time alot of these researches need to TAKE A STEP BACK from what they are looking at and look at it in a more complete way.

    Yeah...I know you're big on studies. But studies didn't get me to where I am. And if I would have taken the advice from information based on studies, I wouldn't have gotten far at all because it would have stopped me from doing alot of the extremely helpful things that I did. So I take them with a grain of salt. Alot of times they're skewed in one direction or the other depending on the outcomes the scientists want. There were probably a ton of studies on the safety of Propecia, if you get my drift. Many of them just don't hold weight to me.

    Instead, why don't you create you OWN studies from experience. See how you do with backloading by keeping track of the different carb intakes and how many grams you took the night before, etc. That would hold much more weight then some random, scientifically irrelevant study.

    Lol....there is that science mind at work again. Forrest for the trees man, forrest for the trees. Taking charcoal would make sense during an acute toxicity issue. But again...This does not, and cannot, nor ever will, compare to the power of an extended fast.

    You're comparing apples and oranges, not apples and apples.....Not even close.

    These studies are done on acute toxicity issues. That is not the case with most fasters. If you're experiencing acute toxicity then you better go the hospital, not a fasting center. Fasting and the administration of charcoal are two completely different things for two completely different purposes.

    When you fast, you detox every cell of all cellular waste that has been, for the most part, built up over a lifetime. Unless you're experiencing an acute toxic over load due to the things listed in the study, the charcoal isn't going to do ANYTHING in this regards.

    It's not going to remove toxins that are stored at the cellular level

    It's not going to remove ANYTHING stored in fat cells. These cells are broken down during the fast for energy and the waste inside them is then processed out.

    it's not going to remove YEARS of built up cellular metabolic waste.

    But more importantly, it's not going to provide the profound rest that is obtained during an extended fast.

    I was going to say, here again is where a study falls short because it doesn't focus on the WHOLE picture. But the study isn't even comparing the correct thing. It's not 100% about detox. While that is a huge part of it, it's also about resting your digestion.

    By stopping the digestive engine, you signal to your body that it can really dig out the deep stuff now....the stuff that charcoal wouldn't do anything for and wouldn't come close to touching. The stuff that is stored deep, deep within the tissues.

    Once this digestive engine stops, the reversal starts. Eating/consuming = retoxing, Fasting = detoxing.

    Charcoal is no match for an extended fast. None. It doesn't even compare on the same level because it's not comparing the same things.

    If you were to undertake one yourself, you would EASILY see this. Easily.

    Anyone who has experienced an extended fast will tell you the same thing. It always seems like it's the folks who are not on board for whatever reason, are the ones that are looking for "studies" to tell them they are right. Studies are no match for real world experience.

    There are plenty of examples (I do have these somewhere) of fasting under medical supervision of people that have REVERSED and ELIMINATED their cancers by fasting them away. These same people could have taken activated charcoal and they would still have cancer, otherwise charcoals would be the cure for cancer. Fasting works differently, and deeply, at reversing internal toxicity, which is what breeds and creates cancer. This is different from acute toxicity which is what the studies you referenced are about.

    There are plenty of studies done on extended fasting. Why don't you research those if you're interested?

    That being said, I just want to preface... I'm not here to try and PROVE anything to anyone. I'm simply here in the capacity to help people and guide them through the process of curing their PFS.

    I'm sharing what has without a doubt worked for me and others. People can choose to take this information based on my experiences and the experiences of others, or not. It really is up to them, and honestly, doesn't matter to me what others believe based on nothing but studies. These studies have really done nothing to help these guys gain a better foot hold on their lives, at all. If they did, there would be no more PFS.

    They're in a position where they have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

    I appreciate all that you've shared here, and I hope you don't take this message the wrong way, because that's not my intention.

    Every once in awhile I find myself having to "defend" my position, and honestly, it's really a drain on my energy and focus, lol.

    The people that choose to go all in and gain these experiences first hand, will see the power in these things and know what it is I'm sharing.

    I feel that sometimes I can't properly put into words exactly how and why these things work in the frame of scientific studies and verbiage. I can see why others would be skeptical, especially if they base all of their decisions on scientific studies and what modern medicine says is the best course of action. This can obviously be a source of frustration to me, because I want to be as clear as I possibly can.

    Sometimes that takes a leap of faith. (Faith based on natural science, not fairy tales) The ones who take that leap based upon their gut instinct as to why it would work, are the ones who reap those benefits and are the ones who become the staunchest proponents of such methods. There is a reason why these people defend these practices with such zeal, despite any doubts from the medical community that in most cases, are the ones who put them in their compromised position in the first place!

    As with most things, current western medical model most definitely included, all you need to do is follow the money and you will have your answer as to why certain things are pushed and others are swept under the carpet.
    Last edited by Cdsnuts; 03-03-2017 at 11:42 PM.
    Total Male Optimization "People who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt those that are doing it"

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