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  1. #21
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 TubZy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cdsnuts View Post
    I have all of the science break down from Kiefer. So for science minded individuals, that is where you're going to want to look. It works for me as advertised.

    I had no trouble during the day staying carb free at all because of the large amount of carbs I would smash the night before. Non what so ever. So regardless of what "studies" say, I take real world experience over what someone in a lab says, who is running an experiment based on variable inputs and NOT on themselves. My experience and the personal experience of others means more to me. Simply because it's real world outcomes...

    You know....one thing I've noticed over the years about people who are very science minded and focus on the minutia of detail, while being brilliant, alot of times they miss the Forrest for the trees. They're TOO focused on the details to notice the bigger picture. That's where they go wrong. I'm trying to think of a clever example here to illustrate my point, one escapes me right now. But lets say you're looking at the planet from space. You can see the whole planet. You can see what is happening of the continents, with the oceans, with the weather, etc. I get a snap shot of the WHOLE thing. If you take a telescope from a satellite and focus down on the surface of the planet, you can see what is going on with individuals on that planet. But just because you can see them, and what they are doing, you no longer have the correct view as to what is going on in the bigger picture. Not the best example, but most of the time alot of these researches need to TAKE A STEP BACK from what they are looking at and look at it in in more complete way.

    Yeah...I know you're big on studies. But studies didn't get me to where I am, so I take them with a grain of salt. Alot of times they're skewed in one direction or the other depending on the outcomes the scientists want. There were probably a ton of studies on the safety of Propecia, if you get my drift. Many of them just don't hold weight to me.

    Instead, why don't you create you OWN studies from experience. See how you do with backloading by keeping track of the different carb intakes and how many grams you took the night before, etc. That would hold much more weight then some random, scientifically irrelevant study.

    Lol....there is that science mind at work again. Forrest for the trees man, forrest for the trees. Taking charcoal would make sense during an acute toxicity issue. But again...This does not, and cannot, nor ever will, compare to the power of an extended fast.

    Not even close.

    These studies are done on acute toxicity issues. That is not the case with most fasters. If you're experiencing acute toxicity then you better go the hospital, not a fasting center. Fasting and the administration of charcoal are two completely different things for two completely different experiences.

    When you fast, you detox every cell of all cellular waste. Unless you're experiencing an acute toxic over load due to the things listed in the study, the charcoal isn't going to do ANYTHING in this regards.

    It's not going to remove toxins that are stored at the cellular level

    It's not going to remove ANYTHING stored in fat cells. These cells are broken down during the fast for energy and the waste inside them is then processed out.

    it's not going to remove YEARS of built up cellular metabolic waste.

    But more importantly, it's not going to provide the profound rest that is obtained during an extended fast.

    I was going to say, here again is where a study falls short because it doesn't focus on the WHOLE picture. But the study isn't even comparing the correct thing. It's not 100% about detox. While that is a huge part of it, it's also about resting your digestion.

    By stopping the digestive engine, you signal to your body that it can really dig out the deep stuff now....the stuff that charcoal wouldn't do anything for and wouldn't come close to touching. The stuff that is stored deep, deep within the tissues.

    Once this digestive engine stops, the reversal starts.

    Charcoal is no match for an extended fast. None. It doesn't even compare on the same level.

    If you were to undertake one yourself, you would EASILY see this. Easily.

    Anyone who has experienced an extended fast will tell you the same thing. It's always seems like it's the folks who are not on board for whatever reason, are the ones that are looking for "studies" to tell them they are right. Studies are no match for real world experience.

    That being said, I just want to preface... I'm not here to try and PROVE anything to anyone. I'm simply here in the capacity to help people and guide them through the process of curing their PFS.

    I'm sharing what has without a doubt worked for me. People can choose to take this information based on my experiences and the experiences of others, or not. It really is up to them, and honestly, doesn't matter to me what others believe based on nothing but studies. These studies have really done nothing to help these guys gain a better foot hold on their lives, at all. If they did, there would be no more PFS.

    They're in a position where they have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

    I appreciate all that you've shared here, and I hope you don't take this message the wrong way, because that's not my intention.

    Every once in awhile I find myself having to "defend" my position, and honestly, it's really a drain on my energy and focus, lol.

    The people that choose to go all in and gain these experiences first hand, will see the power in these things and know what it is I'm sharing.

    I feel that sometimes I can't properly put into words exactly how and why these things work, and I can see why others would be skeptical, especially if they base all of their decisions on scientific studies. This can obviously be a source of frustration to me, because I want to be as clear as I possibly can.


    His name is John Keifer, right? Lol, to discredit "science" but then believe a guy whose background is based entirely around science John Keifer exercise scientist and physicist running a single page site selling an e-book Carb Nite

    I agree, I do think a lot of studies in the weight loss, bodybuilding, cosmetic etc. industry are very sketchy as many of them are sponsored by a major supplement company themselves that is why I always say the older the study better. But keto studies go all the way back to early 1900's, for carb backloading you would at least think there would be some sort of just generalized study doesn't even have to be that complex, I just couldn't find anything.

    Lol...science is good and I do agree that we shouldn't base ALL of it around everything, but again if we didn't even use some science and studies we would be back to the "broscience" stuff, which is an example of the bodybuilding.com forum, if you have been there lol. So if you just completely ignore studies and then someone say take this stuff you will get hyooge bro!

    FYI, you know your favorite product "Androhard" and the former owner/friend of the company that created it called Primordial Performance, Eric, was ALL based around science. Eric always had studies for everything and all of his products (he based androhard around the primo/DHT study) which is how he developed many of his products, he even posted many of the studies in his product description. It is the type of study that matters, if the study is recent and sponsored by a supplement company (or drug company like Merk in regards to propecia, which you mentioned above) etc. yeah for sure it definitely plays a factor. Eric didn't do that either he came across some good studies and of course was one of the first bringing legit "pro hormones" to market.

    OK, so now onto the charcoal stuff lol, which is natural by the way, just like herbs and it has been used for centuries just like fasting.

    "Lol....there is that science mind at work again. Forrest for the trees man, forrest for the trees. Taking charcoal would make sense during an acute toxicity issue. But again...This does not, and cannot, nor ever will, compare to the power of an extended fast."

    It helps during acute toxicity and that is what it was studied for, but it helps even for chronic issues. It can reduce endotoxin big time and lower serotonin (90%+ of serotonin is in the gut) and cross the blood brain barrier.



    "These studies are done on acute toxicity issues. That is not the case with most fasters. If you're experiencing acute toxicity then you better go the hospital, not a fasting center. Fasting and the administration of charcoal are two completely different things for two completely different experiences."


    The reason I mentioned acute toxicity is b/c you said the benefits of fasting was that it could for removing pharma drugs, BPA's, xenosestrogens etc. all which charcoal can do too, so I wouldn't say they are not completely different, but charcoal does much more than just detox.

    Here is also a study showing charcoal significantly removing BPA's.

    http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ac503814j




    "When you fast, you detox every cell of all cellular waste. Unless you're experiencing an acute toxic over load due to the things listed in the study, the charcoal isn't going to do ANYTHING in this regards."


    Yes, right, but you also starving and stress the cell of metabolic energy. Inflammatory markers greatly drop in a fasted state, but that is not necessarily a good thing. From the extreme rise in cortisol, the immune system is greatly suppressed so inflammatory markers would appear much lower. Again, if you were starving a known parasite in your body or fungus, fasting could be an option, but there are also many other natural alternative options for that too (aspirin for example). For certain infections, fasting has the potential to make them worse, due to the severe immune suppression and lack of nutrients and slowed metabolism (low thyroid = low body temp = breeding ground for new potential bacteria). High cellular oxygen environment burns up any bacteria and prevents any new from pathogens from taking hold (bacteria cant live in high heat environment) along with keeping viruses suppressed. They can't live in it, same concept how your body works when battling an infection and you get a "fever".


    "It's not going to remove toxins that are stored at the cellular level"


    Actually that is exactly how it works, cascara even works MORE on a cellular level.

    "It's not going to remove ANYTHING stored in fat cells. These cells are broken down during the fast for energy and the waste inside them is then processed out."


    Yes, they are broken down because the body is turning into a severely catabolic state. Your body is literally doing anything it can to survive.



    "it's not going to remove YEARS of built up cellular metabolic waste."



    We don't know that though, that is pure speculation. Same concept goes for circulating hormones vs tissue level saturation, one could have low circulating estrogen vs high estrogen tissue level concentration, which would not show up on a blood test. Again, cellular metabolic waste from what? If your metabolism is working properly the build up of cellular metabolic waste would be cleared out.


    "I was going to say, here again is where a study falls short because it doesn't focus on the WHOLE picture. But the study isn't even comparing the correct thing. It's not 100% about detox. While that is a huge part of it, it's also about resting your digestion."


    "resting your digestion", let's be honest, what exactly does that even mean lol? What are you resting and from what? Digestive issues are an underlying cause of something else, either an infection and/or slowed metabolism. Hydrochloric acid in the stomach is stimulated by high oxygen consumption to the cell, which again would go back to proper cellular function and at the very base of that would be a proper functioning thyroid. That is the reason why coffee helps with digestion. Caffeine acts exactly like active thyroid in the body and also contains magnesium and niacin, all precursors to HCL in stomach for proper digestion.


    "By stopping the digestive engine, you signal to your body that it can really dig out the deep stuff now....the stuff that charcoal wouldn't do anything for and wouldn't come close to touching. The stuff that is stored deep, deep within the tissues."


    The signal to your body is a stress response, the reason it can dig deep stuff out is it because it has no choice but to start using your body's own tissue for energy in order to survive since glycogen reserves and are depleted and no external source of nutrients are no longer being consumed. And charcoal actually has great penetration, that is my point when I referenced it can significantly cross the blood brainer, this was at least shown in studies so we have some sort of basis. Fasting we really don't know how "deep" it can get, which may take even longer during a fast which could be doing even more damage than good at that point.


    "Charcoal is no match for an extended fast. None. It doesn't even compare on the same level.
    If you were to undertake one yourself, you would EASILY see this. Easily."



    My longest fast was 3 days and it was a water fast, although I did feel temporarily better I also felt worse at the same time. My experience shouldn't deter anyone from trying, just like you said everyone is different. BUT, I was also in deep ketosis for a many months and I did feel better, but I was running on stress hormones with a low body temperature so not ideal. I feel the same way I did in deep ketosis now running back on glucose again just from changing my diet around and focusing on meats, gelatin and fruits, milk.

    I'm not saying fasting doesn't work for a certain condition, but at the same time there are also alternatives to take a look at.

    In terms of studies, if we just ignored the studies and just tried new things and went by how we "feel" we might as well say prolactin is healthy, serotonin is healthy etc. since they can make you "feel" good, but that doesn't mean it is healthy. You still need some science as a backbone to understand the basic mechanics of what is going. I'm not say all studies are good, I actually hate many of the studies put out by the mainstream bodybuilding and supplement industry.

    Lost Empire Herb's entire page for each herb has references and studies for all the claims they make. Should we just ignore those too since they were "running an experiment based on variable inputs and NOT on themselves"? Should we ignore the study that DHT stimulates its own synthesis a positive feedback mechanism which is one of the main reasons that prohormones work better than synthetic AAS? Should we just ignore all of the studies showing finasteride showing a massive decrease in allopreg along with many other protective steroids since the authors of the study probably had their own "agenda" and it wasn't on themselves? Where do we draw the line? I think there just needs to be balance, you can't look at all science and make a conclusion, you also can just ignore the science and make a conclusion.

    Oh and I do use activated charcoal personally a few times per week.
    Last edited by Cdsnuts; 03-04-2017 at 09:21 AM.

  2. #22
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 Swill's Avatar
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    I think both you guys are saying similar things but from a different angle, and your beliefs are not as different as it comes across.

    We all know studies can be very helpful and conductive to progress, and you've both also acknowledged that any studies can have hidden agendas, be dangerous and also a means to demonstrate said agendas (dollar dollar bill, y'all). Fasting, and herbs for that matter, have not been researched to anywhere near the same extent as pharmaceuticals and the like simply because its industry driven and you can't patent water or various natural plants and substances.

    Whilst it interests me, I dont follow and fully know the intricacies on the workings on things health/fitness/optimization on an academic level like you guys. But I can add my two cents on fasting having visited a facility and undergone a two week medically supervised water fast and re-feed. The benefit of 'resting your digestion' from how I understand it is that your body uses up a mass of its energy (I think over 60%) on the digestion of food, and this energy is then used on the detox/healing process... on cell repair rather than simply building new cells that is prioritised in our 'normal' state.

    I can tell you that when I was deep into the fast, whilst understandably not being able to physically do a great deal of moving around etc. I felt a mental alertness, sharpness and clarity that I haven't experienced before or since. I was also waking up on maybe 4 hours sleep being totally refreshed and alert, almost like aside from not being able to exert myself physically I was operating on a more tuned level. I can also say that during my time at the facility I spoke with a person who had actually reversed full blown type 2 diabetes and people who were recovering from similar and it was astounding. I can also say that after my re-feed and I was back up and running 'in normality' I was certainly operating on a different level to what I had pre-fast... It was remarkable how resilient I felt, my display pic on here is only a couple of months post fast (during which I hit 140lbs).

    I can appreciate there can be certain negative impacts to undertaking something as taxing as a water fast, but for me the pro's outweighed the cons and I saw some incredible improvements in other peoples health through my experience too, although the most amazing and stark improvements were from people 'coming back from the brink' rather than striving towards peak performance.

    I can't justify the intricacies of why/how things work as I dont have the knowledge to the extent of you guys... but it seems whilst you do have some opposing views (which is healthy, its what constructive discussion is all about), you both aren't all that far apart minutae aside.
    WORK! CONSUME! DIE!

  3. #23
    Moderator Feedback Score 0 Cdsnuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TubZy View Post
    His name is John Keifer, right? Lol, to discredit "science" but then believe a guy whose background is based entirely around science John Keifer exercise scientist and physicist running a single page site selling an e-book Carb Nite

    I agree, I do think a lot of studies in the weight loss, bodybuilding, cosmetic etc. industry are very sketchy as many of them are sponsored by a major supplement company themselves that is why I always say the older the study better. But keto studies go all the way back to early 1900's, for carb backloading you would at least think there would be some sort of just generalized study doesn't even have to be that complex, I just couldn't find anything.

    Lol...science is good and I do agree that we shouldn't base ALL of it around everything, but again if we didn't even use some science and studies we would be back to the "broscience" stuff, which is an example of the bodybuilding.com forum, if you have been there lol. So if you just completely ignore studies and then someone say take this stuff you will get hyooge bro!

    FYI, you know your favorite product "Androhard" and the former owner/friend of the company that created it called Primordial Performance, Eric, was ALL based around science. Eric always had studies for everything and all of his products (he based androhard around the primo/DHT study) which is how he developed many of his products, he even posted many of the studies in his product description. It is the type of study that matters, if the study is recent and sponsored by a supplement company (or drug company like Merk in regards to propecia, which you mentioned above) etc. yeah for sure it definitely plays a factor. Eric didn't do that either he came across some good studies and of course was one of the first bringing legit "pro hormones" to market.

    OK, so now onto the charcoal stuff lol, which is natural by the way, just like herbs and it has been used for centuries just like fasting.

    "Lol....there is that science mind at work again. Forrest for the trees man, forrest for the trees. Taking charcoal would make sense during an acute toxicity issue. But again...This does not, and cannot, nor ever will, compare to the power of an extended fast."

    It helps during acute toxicity and that is what it was studied for, but it helps even for chronic issues. It can reduce endotoxin big time and lower serotonin (90%+ of serotonin is in the gut) and cross the blood brain barrier.



    "These studies are done on acute toxicity issues. That is not the case with most fasters. If you're experiencing acute toxicity then you better go the hospital, not a fasting center. Fasting and the administration of charcoal are two completely different things for two completely different experiences."


    The reason I mentioned acute toxicity is b/c you said the benefits of fasting was that it could for removing pharma drugs, BPA's, xenosestrogens etc. all which charcoal can do too, so I wouldn't say they are not completely different, but charcoal does much more than just detox.

    Here is also a study showing charcoal significantly removing BPA's.

    http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ac503814j




    "When you fast, you detox every cell of all cellular waste. Unless you're experiencing an acute toxic over load due to the things listed in the study, the charcoal isn't going to do ANYTHING in this regards."


    Yes, right, but you also starving and stress the cell of metabolic energy. Inflammatory markers greatly drop in a fasted state, but that is not necessarily a good thing. From the extreme rise in cortisol, the immune system is greatly suppressed so inflammatory markers would appear much lower. Again, if you were starving a known parasite in your body or fungus, fasting could be an option, but there are also many other natural alternative options for that too (aspirin for example). For certain infections, fasting has the potential to make them worse, due to the severe immune suppression and lack of nutrients and slowed metabolism (low thyroid = low body temp = breeding ground for new potential bacteria). High cellular oxygen environment burns up any bacteria and prevents any new from pathogens from taking hold (bacteria cant live in high heat environment) along with keeping viruses suppressed. They can't live in it, same concept how your body works when battling an infection and you get a "fever".


    "It's not going to remove toxins that are stored at the cellular level"


    Actually that is exactly how it works, cascara even works MORE on a cellular level.

    "It's not going to remove ANYTHING stored in fat cells. These cells are broken down during the fast for energy and the waste inside them is then processed out."


    Yes, they are broken down because the body is turning into a severely catabolic state. Your body is literally doing anything it can to survive.



    "it's not going to remove YEARS of built up cellular metabolic waste."



    We don't know that though, that is pure speculation. Same concept goes for circulating hormones vs tissue level saturation, one could have low circulating estrogen vs high estrogen tissue level concentration, which would not show up on a blood test. Again, cellular metabolic waste from what? If your metabolism is working properly the build up of cellular metabolic waste would be cleared out.


    "I was going to say, here again is where a study falls short because it doesn't focus on the WHOLE picture. But the study isn't even comparing the correct thing. It's not 100% about detox. While that is a huge part of it, it's also about resting your digestion."


    "resting your digestion", let's be honest, what exactly does that even mean lol? What are you resting and from what? Digestive issues are an underlying cause of something else, either an infection and/or slowed metabolism. Hydrochloric acid in the stomach is stimulated by high oxygen consumption to the cell, which again would go back to proper cellular function and at the very base of that would be a proper functioning thyroid. That is the reason why coffee helps with digestion. Caffeine acts exactly like active thyroid in the body and also contains magnesium and niacin, all precursors to HCL in stomach for proper digestion.


    "By stopping the digestive engine, you signal to your body that it can really dig out the deep stuff now....the stuff that charcoal wouldn't do anything for and wouldn't come close to touching. The stuff that is stored deep, deep within the tissues."


    The signal to your body is a stress response, the reason it can dig deep stuff out is it because it has no choice but to start using your body's own tissue for energy in order to survive since glycogen reserves and are depleted and no external source of nutrients are no longer being consumed. And charcoal actually has great penetration, that is my point when I referenced it can significantly cross the blood brainer, this was at least shown in studies so we have some sort of basis. Fasting we really don't know how "deep" it can get, which may take even longer during a fast which could be doing even more damage than good at that point.


    "Charcoal is no match for an extended fast. None. It doesn't even compare on the same level.
    If you were to undertake one yourself, you would EASILY see this. Easily."



    My longest fast was 3 days and it was a water fast, although I did feel temporarily better I also felt worse at the same time. My experience shouldn't deter anyone from trying, just like you said everyone is different. BUT, I was also in deep ketosis for a many months and I did feel better, but I was running on stress hormones with a low body temperature so not ideal. I feel the same way I did in deep ketosis now running back on glucose again just from changing my diet around and focusing on meats, gelatin and fruits, milk.

    I'm not saying fasting doesn't work for a certain condition, but at the same time there are also alternatives to take a look at.

    In terms of studies, if we just ignored the studies and just tried new things and went by how we "feel" we might as well say prolactin is healthy, serotonin is healthy etc. since they can make you "feel" good, but that doesn't mean it is healthy. You still need some science as a backbone to understand the basic mechanics of what is going. I'm not say all studies are good, I actually hate many of the studies put out by the mainstream bodybuilding and supplement industry.

    Lost Empire Herb's entire page for each herb has references and studies for all the claims they make. Should we just ignore those too since they were "running an experiment based on variable inputs and NOT on themselves"? Should we ignore the study that DHT stimulates its own synthesis a positive feedback mechanism which is one of the main reasons that prohormones work better than synthetic AAS? Should we just ignore all of the studies showing finasteride showing a massive decrease in allopreg along with many other protective steroids since the authors of the study probably had their own "agenda" and it wasn't on themselves? Where do we draw the line? I think there just needs to be balance, you can't look at all science and make a conclusion, you also can just ignore the science and make a conclusion.

    Oh and I do use activated charcoal personally a few times per week.
    Lol...I'm not saying science is bad....that would be ridiculous. Nor am I discrediting science. The principles of fasting are based on Natural Science.

    Just because you can't find studies on something doesn't mean it's not scientifically valid.

    And the balance you talk about has to be from personal experience.

    My previous comments stand. I'm just going to sound like a broken record.

    I have no interest in spending anymore time on this, as I said, I'm not here to prove my point. So I'm not going to go tit for tat with you.

    I've shared links with you in regards to information on extended fasting, but you choose to not focus on those.

    Again, you are not going to get the same results taking charcoal then you would undertaking an extended fast. Thinking it is the same is foolish.

    Try something longer then a three day fast and you'll see what I mean....or don't. Lol. It doesn't matter to me and doesn't change anything. But it's no wonder you felt like shit stopping the fast after only three days. This isn't a surprise at all.

    If you like, I can put you in touch with the Doctors that study fasting and they will most definitely be able to settle your anxieties about extended fasting. They may even enjoy entertaining the concerns you mentioned above. There is an answer to each one of them, and I'm tempted to go back at it, but I really don't want to get sucked into another long response.

    Let me know if you would like that, and I'll make it happen.
    Last edited by Cdsnuts; 03-04-2017 at 11:24 AM.
    Total Male Optimization "People who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt those that are doing it"

  4. #24
    Moderator Feedback Score 0 Cdsnuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swill View Post
    I think both you guys are saying similar things but from a different angle, and your beliefs are not as different as it comes across.

    We all know studies can be very helpful and conductive to progress, and you've both also acknowledged that any studies can have hidden agendas, be dangerous and also a means to demonstrate said agendas (dollar dollar bill, y'all). Fasting, and herbs for that matter, have not been researched to anywhere near the same extent as pharmaceuticals and the like simply because its industry driven and you can't patent water or various natural plants and substances.

    Whilst it interests me, I dont follow and fully know the intricacies on the workings on things health/fitness/optimization on an academic level like you guys. But I can add my two cents on fasting having visited a facility and undergone a two week medically supervised water fast and re-feed. The benefit of 'resting your digestion' from how I understand it is that your body uses up a mass of its energy (I think over 60%) on the digestion of food, and this energy is then used on the detox/healing process... on cell repair rather than simply building new cells that is prioritised in our 'normal' state.

    I can tell you that when I was deep into the fast, whilst understandably not being able to physically do a great deal of moving around etc. I felt a mental alertness, sharpness and clarity that I haven't experienced before or since. I was also waking up on maybe 4 hours sleep being totally refreshed and alert, almost like aside from not being able to exert myself physically I was operating on a more tuned level. I can also say that during my time at the facility I spoke with a person who had actually reversed full blown type 2 diabetes and people who were recovering from similar and it was astounding. I can also say that after my re-feed and I was back up and running 'in normality' I was certainly operating on a different level to what I had pre-fast... It was remarkable how resilient I felt, my display pic on here is only a couple of months post fast (during which I hit 140lbs).

    I can appreciate there can be certain negative impacts to undertaking something as taxing as a water fast, but for me the pro's outweighed the cons and I saw some incredible improvements in other peoples health through my experience too, although the most amazing and stark improvements were from people 'coming back from the brink' rather than striving towards peak performance.

    I can't justify the intricacies of why/how things work as I dont have the knowledge to the extent of you guys... but it seems whilst you do have some opposing views (which is healthy, its what constructive discussion is all about), you both aren't all that far apart minutae aside.
    Tubz is going to ask to see studies to back up your claims...otherwise you were just delerious.....lol. I'm busting your balls Tubz.

    That is exactly what "resting your digestion" means. Exactly what it says ...

    That has been my experience and the experience of most other extended fasters. Based on studies though, we should be feeling like death.

    In my experience when you get into the fast away's you feel what is happening is healthy, and supposed to happen. There is no nervousness or anxiety or stress. You can feel the changes happening and there is a sereness about it.

    These are things that only someone with fasting experience will understand.
    Last edited by Cdsnuts; 03-04-2017 at 10:39 AM.
    Total Male Optimization "People who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt those that are doing it"

  5. #25
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 TubZy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cdsnuts View Post
    Tubz is going to ask to see studies to back up your claims...otherwise you were just delerious.....lol. I'm busting your balls Tubz.

    That is exactly what "resting your digestion" means. Exactly what it says ...

    That has been my experience and the experience of most other extended fasters. Based on studies though, we should be feeling like death.

    In my experience when you get into the fast away's you feel what is happening is healthy, and supposed to happen. There is no nervousness or anxiety or stress. You can feel the changes happening and there is a sereness about it.

    These are things that only someone with fasting experience will understand.
    Correct, I do like to find out the reason why something either makes me feel good or bad and try to figure out why, that is why science can help. It is good to know what is happening in your body. In the sense of fasting, I was just saying it's a proven science whether you believe or not that cortisol will dramatically rise when there is no glycogen reserves in the body. That is just how the body works and is a survival mechanism. Excess cortisol is proven whether you agree with it or not to be the root cause of many pathological diseases. This is actually the primary reason why the herbs work so well due to their adaptogen properties of modulating cortisol, which can increase testosterone, increase thyroid (ashwaganda), lower estrogen, increase DHT, increase resistance to stress etc.

    For example, pine pollen contains androsterone and androsterone was the active ingredient in R andro/androhard. I just like to figure out why certain things do what they do not only for specific instances but for further innovation and expansion.

    I have no reason to fast anymore at all so it doesn't appeal to me, I know you work from home so fasting isn't that hard for you but when you have to deal with people on a daily basis in person it sucks lol. I know it sounds like I'm really hardcore against fasting, I'm not lol. Like I said I think there could be benefits, but from my personal experience it did not work well, which is what led me to looking into the science behind fasting in the first place, because I wanted to understand exactly what was going on.

    Anyways, I promise I will shut up now, otherwise this will go on too long lol.
    Last edited by TubZy; 03-04-2017 at 01:27 PM.

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    Moderator Feedback Score 0 Cdsnuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TubZy View Post
    Correct, I do like to find out the reason why something either makes me feel good or bad and try to figure out why, that is why science can help. It is good to know what is happening in your body. In the sense of fasting, I was just saying it's a proven science whether you believe or not that cortisol will dramatically rise when there is no glycogen reserves in the body. That is just how the body works and is a survival mechanism. Excess cortisol is proven whether you agree with it or not to be the route cause of many pathological diseases. This is actually the primary reason why the herbs work so well due to their adaptogen properties of modulating cortisol, which can increase testosterone, increase thyroid (ashwaganda), lower estrogen, increase DHT, increase resistance to stress etc.

    For example, pine pollen contains androsterone and androsterone was the active ingredient in R andro/androhard. I just like to figure out why certain things do what they do not only for specific instances but for further innovation and expansion.

    I have no reason to fast anymore at all so it doesn't appeal to me, I know you work from home so fasting isn't that hard for you but when you have to deal with people on a daily basis it sucks lol. I know it sounds like I'm really hardcore against fasting, I'm not lol. Like I said I think there could be benefits, but from my personal experience it did not work well, which is what led me to looking into the science behind fasting in the first place, because I wanted to understand exactly what was going on.

    Anyways, I promise I will shut up now, otherwise this will go on too long lol.
    So then we come full circle. Like I've already stated, the benefits gained from a fast FAR outweigh any TEMPORARY increase in cortisol. This temporary increase during the fast isn't going to cause any pathological conditions.....lol. Otherwise people wouldn't be fasting therapeutically!

    When you get into your fast, you actually feel nice and calm. You don't feel stressed whatsoever.

    I dont think youre getting it man...but I think it's because you're overlooking what I'm recommending. it's no wonder why "it didn't work for you" because you didn't do it correctly!! This is like when people will only do certain aspects of the protocol, bail on it after a few weeks and then say it didn't work....lol. Of course it's not going to work when you don't work it correctly.

    I always recommend fasting at a water fasting center run by doctors. You don't undertake this going through your normal life...it's impossible. You can't successfully water fast going through the motions of day to day routine! THAT will cause an increase in cortisol..... You have to be fully rested with absolutely nothing to do. You literally, lay around and rest....that's it. That was your first mistake.

    Secondly, as I've already mentioned prior, you didn't go long enough to feel the benefits. Fasting for only 3 days IS going to make you feel like shit. This is no surprise. Especially if you were just doing the things you normal do in a day. After only three days your body is just getting into it. No where near enough time to make a correct assessment

    I understand you have no need for one anymore, thankfully, but if you were to actually do it right, as it's recommended, you would have gotten benefits like everyone does. THIS is why fasting has to be done at a center with people who understand the process. You are literally told to not move around more then you have to. This lack of activity minimizes calorie expenditure keeping cortisol spikes as low as they can be.

    I've never felt the effects of cortisol while fasting. No anxiousness, nervousness, etc. Just the opposite as a matter of fact. just as Swill had mentioned. Immensely clear headed. Completely and utterly calm. Fully centered and focused. This doesn't' sound like someone running high cortisol, does it?

    Given what you tried to do, it makes sense why you have the opinion you do....lol. At least now we're coming to a point of understanding here....
    Last edited by Cdsnuts; 03-04-2017 at 08:00 PM.
    Total Male Optimization "People who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt those that are doing it"

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    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 0 Maxout777's Avatar
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    Wow, I mean that escalated quickly!
    There ain't no traffic along the extra mile.

    Never Quit.

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    Paleo Diet + Carb Back loading Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxout777 View Post
    Wow, I mean that escalated quickly!
    Too much? Lol

    If so no disrespect at all from any of it

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
    Total Male Optimization "People who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt those that are doing it"

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    Paleo Diet + Carb Back loading Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Cdsnuts View Post
    Too much? Lol

    If so no disrespect at all from any of it

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
    I just love that quote from Anchorman and use it any appropriate chance I get lol.
    There ain't no traffic along the extra mile.

    Never Quit.

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    I have a question about Carb Backloading - from what time is it okay to eat carbs??

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