Gonadin

[TubZy]

Ok thanks, I'll up the preg dose and see how I go for a week, I may lay off the DHP during this time also as looking at the signs of low E, I may be displaying them (fatigue, joint creaking, anxiety), but they could just be unrelated an part and parcel of PFS plus I've always had creaky joints.
I'll look into caffeine and aspirin also, I've always had quite a low tolerance to it and a month before my crash I actually quit all caffeine as it I was displaying signs of adrenal fatigue (probably exasperated by the fin also). By the time I quit it had stopped giving me a dopaministic response and would always just leave me jittery and anxious Haven't touched a drop since. Having said that I've read some of your posts on having it at the same time as the l-theanine and that seems to counter act the worse aspects of it. I don't know if I'll be able to work up to 1200mg any time soon though, I'd be swinging from the rafters.

Good idea, I would lay off the 5a-dhp. Just try the preg only.

In regards to the caffeine, I was always sensitive to it even prior to PFS but honestly I think I would probably have a massive panic attack if I didn't use it with niacinamide at the dose I'm at now (600mg of caffeine in one sitting) lol. But the good news is that I'm already almost at a comfortable tolerance at this dose so I'm moving up quick.

If you need more support 5-6 grams of vit C will bring down cortisol quick too and other stress hormones from the caffeine. I think the biggest issue is taking it with a giant meal, lots of carbs, sugar, protein etc.

BTW the caffeine benefits, don't only come at the 1200mg dose so even lower doses will still help.

[coppersocks]

Thanks for the help man! I'll you keep you posted with my results.

[coppersocks]

I've taken the higher dosage of pregnenolone (150mg) for a couple of days now and it seems to have tanked my libido, well either that or it's the natural PFS cycle of comings and goings. I've read on the RP forum that excess progesterone can have estrogenic effects so maybe the dose is a bit too high for me as I'm only a little over 5'7. However, my confidence and focus were massively up without a doubt and the first day I got no brain fog at all, however anxiety and emotional flatness creeps back up in the evenings somewhat once I got home so maybe I should separate out the dose a little. I'll keep at it for a another couple days and see how it goes.

Another thing is that preg seems to be bought up a lot on these forums, would it be worth giving it it's own thread at this stage so we can accumulate the data and user reports as opposed to having them disparately spread out. I know it's not part of the protocol and is not endorsed by CD but as it's a common topic maybe it would be a valuable resource plus it'd stop other threads derailing (like I'm doing here). I'd be willing to start it though I don't consider myself to be an authority on the matter.

EDIT: Ignore above, there is a thread already by Tubzy I'd forgotten about, I'll use that from now on in regards to preg.

[TubZy]

I've taken the higher dosage of pregnenolone (150mg) for a couple of days now and it seems to have tanked my libido, well either that or it's the natural PFS cycle of comings and goings. I've read on the RP forum that excess progesterone can have estrogenic effects so maybe the dose is a bit too high for me as I'm only a little over 5'7. However, my confidence and focus were massively up without a doubt and the first day I got no brain fog at all, however anxiety and emotional flatness creeps back up in the evenings somewhat once I got home so maybe I should separate out the dose a little. I'll keep at it for a another couple days and see how it goes.

Another thing is that preg seems to be bought up a lot on these forums, would it be worth giving it it's own thread at this stage so we can accumulate the data and user reports as opposed to having them disparately spread out. I know it's not part of the protocol and is not endorsed by CD but as it's a common topic maybe it would be a valuable resource plus it'd stop other threads derailing (like I'm doing here). I'd be willing to start it though I don't consider myself to be an authority on the matter.

EDIT: Ignore above, there is a thread already by Tubzy I'd forgotten about, I'll use that from now on in regards to preg.

Damn, man that sucks. Any change in shrinkage though? Adding in 5-10mg of DHEA will bring the libido back if you are still trying to go that route.

[coppersocks]

Yeah it is what it is, it happens. I'm gonna keep at this for another week on just the preg but lower the does to 100mg. After reading your posts and others on the RP forum I'm convinced that preg will be beneficial in the long run and I'll continue to use it, I just need to find the dose that fits and it definitely seems to help with anxiety and memory retention so it's gonna remain in my arsenal.
In regards to the DHEA I've actually ordered pansterone from ideal labs along with their vit K supplement. I'm reading plenty of positive stories by PFS sufferers using pan topically so I'm gonna do a run of those two applied topically on the scrotum together and see how it goes. My three biggest issues right now are 1. coming and going libido but is on an upward curve when looked at long term 2. Emotional flatness and 3. brain fog that comes for a few hours to a day at a time and I'm hoping that the increase of serum level androgenic hormones from the the topical application will have a positive effect on definitely the first two as every time I feel particularly T filled my zest for life comes back by magnitudes. I'm still not sure what the brainfog is or what the cause is, I just feel deeper in my head when it happens and less likely to want to talk to people, I feel less present and able to concentrate or contribute to conversation, hopefully I'll pin point it in the near future what exactly triggers it.

Other than the first few weeks after my crash I haven't had much of an issue with shrinkage and there has been good circulation in my junk since my juice feast, all though this morning it was a bit like I had stepped out of a cold shower and that's what clued me into the effect the preg might be having, however as the day has worn on everything is getting a bit looser down there again. How about you? Any effects to report on Gonadin or Diamant yourself? I actually have a bottle of Diamant that managed to make its way to me in like 3 days from the states but I haven't touched it yet.

[TubZy]

Yeah it is what it is, it happens. I'm gonna keep at this for another week on just the preg but lower the does to 100mg. After reading your posts and others on the RP forum I'm convinced that preg will be beneficial in the long run and I'll continue to use it, I just need to find the dose that fits and it definitely seems to help with anxiety and memory retention so it's gonna remain in my arsenal.
In regards to the DHEA I've actually ordered pansterone from ideal labs along with their vit K supplement. I'm reading plenty of positive stories by PFS sufferers using pan topically so I'm gonna do a run of those two applied topically on the scrotum together and see how it goes. My three biggest issues right now are 1. coming and going libido but is on an upward curve when looked at long term 2. Emotional flatness and 3. brain fog that comes for a few hours to a day at a time and I'm hoping that the increase of serum level androgenic hormones from the the topical application will have a positive effect on definitely the first two as every time I feel particularly T filled my zest for life comes back by magnitudes. I'm still not sure what the brainfog is or what the cause is, I just feel deeper in my head when it happens and less likely to want to talk to people, I feel less present and able to concentrate or contribute to conversation, hopefully I'll pin point it in the near future what exactly triggers it.

Other than the first few weeks after my crash I haven't had much of an issue with shrinkage and there has been good circulation in my junk since my juice feast, all though this morning it was a bit like I had stepped out of a cold shower and that's what clued me into the effect the preg might be having, however as the day has worn on everything is getting a bit looser down there again. How about you? Any effects to report on Gonadin or Diamant yourself? I actually have a bottle of Diamant that managed to make its way to me in like 3 days from the states but I haven't touched it yet.

Yeah, I had low prog, and the people that it helped had low prog as well. As a normal male, it is suggested to use the preg with 5mg of dhea to help keep the androgenic ratio. Maybe your prog was already pretty normal, so the extra preg converted to prog and increased prog too much. When I take prog directly I have to take DHEA or else I get the symptoms you describe. If you want even further androgenic properties, yeah, applying directly to the scrotum would be best due to the high amount of 5AR enzymes. For me personally, my issue wasn't so much androgen deficiency but neurosteroid, which makes sense since higher doses of preg converts more to prog and allopreg.

I stopped gonadin for now, Haidut is releasing a new formula with some added AR agonists that should further increase it, so I'm going to try that when it comes out which should be this week or so.

[jacknap]

I mention this quite a lot but I felt absolutely nothing from 50mg of pregnenolone. I had to use 150mg taken in all one dose after breakfast (w/ food). Try doing exactly that for 1 week and measure results.

Sure, the topical supplements are on the site I mentioned vitamin K2 is "kuinone", preg/dhea is under "pansterone" etc. for high dose preg just use a reputable brand. I wouldn't use T3/thyroid yet unless you feel the need to absolutely need to a last resort. Preg alone will stimulate metabolism especially at the dose I mentioned so make sure you are eating enough protein and sugar.

The only pitfall for PFS people is we have a tendency to burn through glycogen stores extremely fast along with suffering from low cortisol/estrogen when using supplements. This is the exact reason why I always suggest preg alone first since it is the basic precursor to all steroids keeping everything check then you can add in things and go from there if needed. Another similar supplement that can also be supportive is caffeine or caffeine + aspirin. Take a look at my thread where caffeine increased steroid/neurosteroids by a huge amount specifically in the brain.

5a-DHP is OK w/ preg and other supplements but keep in mind it can also lower estrogen and cortisol. So having too many supplements that do that can make you feel worse. Specifically for the ball sack issue, high dose preg was the only supplement that really did the job.

just some things about this though.

1. aspirin is very toxic to the stomach lining and is known for causing ulcers.
2. caffeine isolated at such a high dose might be dicey possible glutamate toxicity I'd imagine - having it in coffee might be neuroprotective because of thousands of other compounds in it antioxidants, flavanoids etc.

[TubZy]

just some things about this though.

1. aspirin is very toxic to the stomach lining and is known for causing ulcers.
2. caffeine isolated at such a high dose might be dicey possible glutamate toxicity I'd imagine - having it in coffee might be neuroprotective because of thousands of other compounds in it antioxidants, flavanoids etc.

1. no it's not- it can only irritate the stomach lining for a small number of people possibly as their stomach adjusts to it and this is usually in VERY high doses in the beginning. You can also completely avoid any stomach issues by simply taking with glycine or baking soda anyways. Also, it was shown to repair the stomach lining and GI tract which is completely the opposite of what you just claimed (a common mainstream misconception). I personally went up to 5 grams daily before of aspirin with no stomach or GI issues, I don't suggest this though unless you are trying to treat cancer or some deadly pathogen.


Uncoupling of intestinal mitochondrial oxidative phosphorylation and inhibition of cyclooxygenase are required for the development of NSAID Therapeutics - Wiley Online Library

"...Intestinal permeability: Intestinal permeability following vehicle, indomethacin, aspirin and DNP. Intestinal permeability is significantly increased in the 1–6-h period following indomethacin and DNP administration (with or without aspirin). Aspirin alone had no significant effect on intestinal permeability. Results are expressed as the mean (± s.e.) urinary excretion (% dose) of 51CrEDTA. * Differs significantly (P < 0.01) from control."



It not only can no do harm and repair the GI tract but can also prevent known irritants from doing damage

Gastric adaptation to injury by repeated doses of aspirin strengthens mucosal defence against subsequent exposure to various strong irritants in rats. - PubMed - NCBI


The first dose of ASA produced numerous gastric lesions and deep histological necrosis accompanied by a fall in the gastric blood flow, negligible expression of epidermal growth factor (EGF) and transforming growth factor alpha (TGF alpha) or their receptors, and no evidence of mucosal proliferation. As adaptation to ASA developed, however, the areas of gastric lesions were reduced by more than 80% and there was a noticeable decrease in deep necrosis, a partial restoration of gastric blood flow, an approximately four-fold increase in EGF expression (but not in TGF alpha) and its receptors, and an appreciable increase in mucosal cell proliferation compared with vehicle treated rats


2. Caffeine alone is safe and very effective. Caffeine (not particularly coffee) was shown to be beneficial from everything to extending lifespan by 50% and reverse liver damage/fibrosis, provide neuroprotection by increasing neurosteroids in the brain, lowering serotonin and being and ER antagonist etc. I know what you are saying as I can see some other substances when isolated from a food can be dangerous, but caffeine even in isolation is not only safe but has some extremely beneficial health aspects.


Extending life span, human dose was equivalent to 600-1200mg a day, so again caffeine is very safe even at high doses.


Caffeine extends yeast lifespan by targeting TORC1. - PubMed - NCBI
FDA-Approved Drugs that Protect Mammalian Neurons from Glucose Toxicity Slow Aging Dependent on Cbp and Protect Against Proteotoxicity


Liver protection
Increased caffeine consumption is associated with reduced hepatic fibrosis. - PubMed - NCBI
Association of coffee and caffeine consumption with fatty liver disease, nonalcoholic steatohepatitis, and degree of hepatic fibrosis. - PubMed - NCBI
Caffeine is protective in patients with non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. - PubMed - NCBI


To prove it to you even further, this study used coffee and concluded the beneficial effects primarily ranged from caffeine.

Molecule contained in caffeine thought to slow growth of tissues that damage the organ  | Daily Mail Online

"...Experts are not certain why coffee seems to have such a protective impact on the liver, but there is growing evidence that when caffeine enters the body, one of the molecules it is broken down into – paraxanthine – may slow the growth of tissues that damage the liver."


Caffeine and serotonin antagonism, anti fibrosis

Chronic Caffeine Alters the Density of Adenosine, Adrenergic, Cholinergic, GABA, and Serotonin Receptors and Calcium Channels in Mouse Brain

The densities of cortical 5 HT1 and 5 HT2 serotonergic receptors are increased by 26–30%. Densities of cortical muscarinic and nicotinic receptors are increased by 40–50%. The density of cortical benzodiazepine-binding sites associated with GABAA receptors is increased by 65%, and the affinity appears slightly decreased. The density of cortical MK-801 sites associated with NMDA-glutaminergic receptors appear unaltered.

Not only did it act as a serotonin receptor antagonist but is also upregulated GABA-A. And based on the last sentence of the study I posted above, glutaminergic receptors seems unchanged as well, where did you see glutamate toxicity with caffeine before?