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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakehouse99 View Post
    pregnenolone didnt do jack shit for me, neither did allepregnenolone


    considering taking topical progesterone since people on PH swear it helps them with brain fog, and ive tried just about everything for this brain fog except that
    Did you ever try progesterone?

  2. #22
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 JoeP26's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jado View Post
    Did you ever try progesterone?
    Speaking personally, myself, progesterone cream 25mg once every night applied to either the upper chest and shoulders or the back of the neck is quite nice for PFS. Very relaxing and diminishes a lot of mental and neuro-cognitive symptoms. Those areas are heavily saturated with both types of 5ar (SRD5A1 and SRD5A2) as well as conversion to DHP then Allo. You would just wanna make sure your estradiol doesn't get high on it because it can block 5ar type 2 (blocking T to DHT conversion thus causing more T to E2 conversion). But this is usually only high doses (100+mg).
    Last edited by JoeP26; 09-09-2021 at 07:26 PM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeP26 View Post
    Speaking personally, myself, progesterone cream 25mg once every night applied to either the upper chest and shoulders or the back of the neck is quite nice for PFS. Very relaxing and diminishes a lot of mental and neuro-cognitive symptoms. Those areas are heavily saturated with both types of 5ar (SRD5A1 and SRD5A2) as well as conversion to DHP then Allo. You would just wanna make sure your estradiol doesn't get high on it because it can block 5ar type 2 (blocking T to DHT conversion thus causing more T to E2 conversion). But this is usually only high doses (100+mg).
    So what do you try to keep your progesterone level at?

  4. #24
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 JoeP26's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jado View Post
    So what do you try to keep your progesterone level at?
    Men can have serum levels up to about 1ng/mL. Some labs have outdated ranges claiming anything above .2 is high but that's total crap. I keep mine around .8 to 1.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeP26 View Post
    Men can have serum levels up to about 1ng/mL. Some labs have outdated ranges claiming anything above .2 is high but that's total crap. I keep mine around .8 to 1.
    Is pregnenalone one of those supps thatís essentially a bandaid that relieves symptoms only when you take it, or could it be used as something that starts kickstarting things downstream like prohormones?

  6. #26
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 JoeP26's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turnover25 View Post
    Is pregnenalone one of those supps thatís essentially a bandaid that relieves symptoms only when you take it, or could it be used as something that starts kickstarting things downstream like prohormones?
    Both Pregnenolone and DHEA supplements are what Dr. Mark Gordon uses to treat PFS. He also uses gonaditropins, B complex, and various other supplements (some are in CD's protocol, in fact) in these liquid cocktails. Some have recovered with this approach. Pregnenolone itself is an easily acquired supplement with no real risk of any suppression. It has a positive feedback loop that prevents that, meaning you can use and quit with everything returning to normal baseline, as dose DHEA and Androsterone. Androsterone is what R-Andro is made of. It's also in Andro Hard and Ultra Hard but stacked with an additional ingredient, EpiAndrosterone, as the primary ingredient.

    The problem with Pregnenolone, DHEA, and EpiAndrosterone is that they either directly or downstream stimulate Glutamate production and either directly or downstream create metabolites that act as antagonists to the GABAA receptors. Bare in mind with PFS that because 5ar got blocked, it consequently blocked the production of several Allosteric Modulators/neurosteroids. The big ones being Allopregnanolone, THDOC, and Androsterone. They agonize the GABAA receptors and stimulate Glutamic Acid Decarboxylase, which is another enzyme that converts the neurotransmitter, Glutamate (a stimulant neurotransmitter), into GABA (a sedative neurotransmitter that counter acts Glutamate's action on the CNS). The neurosteroids both agonize GABAA receptors and potentiate GABA's action on GABAA leading to sedation of the CNS, senses of well-being, euphoria, sleep, anti-stress, anti-anxiety, anti-depression, and anti-inflammation. In PFS, GABAA receptors are very upregulated because of this blockage from Finasteride and other 5ARIs. This also causes excess Glutamate signaling, since it can no longer convert, leading to neuro-inflammation, damage to neurons, cognitive impairment, anxiety, restlessness, brain fog, insomnia, excess pain signaling, and the list goes.

    This is why I personally have not been a fan of prohormones with EpiAndrosterone in them. It's just going to potentially lead to further issues in those who have too little GABA and severely upregulated GABAA receptors. Supplementing Pregnenolone and DHEA is the same story. Pregnenolone splits off into other pathways other than progesterone. It also goes into the sulfated form, Pregnenolone Sulfate, which causes exactly what I outlined above. DHEA directly stimulates glutamate production and DHEA Sulfate, the metabolite of DHEA, antagonizes GABAA.

    Personally, I have used those compounds in the past and they never helped me at all. Pregnenolone at one point made feel way worse neurologically. I dropped those altogether and just went straight for progesterone, testosterone (with an AI always, force that DHT), DHP, and Androsterone. All of that bypasses those pathways with those metabolites that antagonize GABAA and stimulate Glutamate.

    That being said, there are times when it's justified in some PFS'ers to use Pregnenolone and DHEA supplementation. You can easily get a doctor to test those (if they're personally willing) and determine if you're low in them. Ideally, you want to be smack dab in the center of the reference ranges. If adequate or higher, you do not want to do it. Bad idea.
    Last edited by JoeP26; 09-09-2021 at 11:33 PM.

  7. #27
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    Is applying andro a bandaid fix or will it change the way receptors function in the longterm?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeP26 View Post
    Both Pregnenolone and DHEA supplements are what Dr. Mark Gordon uses to treat PFS. He also uses gonaditropins, B complex, and various other supplements (some are in CD's protocol, in fact) in these liquid cocktails. Some have recovered with this approach. Pregnenolone itself is an easily acquired supplement with no real risk of any suppression. It has a positive feedback loop that prevents that, meaning you can use and quit with everything returning to normal baseline, as dose DHEA and Androsterone. Androsterone is what R-Andro is made of. It's also in Andro Hard and Ultra Hard but stacked with an additional ingredient, EpiAndrosterone, as the primary ingredient.

    The problem with Pregnenolone, DHEA, and EpiAndrosterone is that they either directly or downstream stimulate Glutamate production and either directly or downstream create metabolites that act as antagonists to the GABAA receptors. Bare in mind with PFS that because 5ar got blocked, it consequently blocked the production of several Allosteric Modulators/neurosteroids. The big ones being Allopregnanolone, THDOC, and Androsterone. They agonize the GABAA receptors and stimulate Glutamic Acid Decarboxylase, which is another enzyme that converts the neurotransmitter, Glutamate (a stimulant neurotransmitter), into GABA (a sedative neurotransmitter that counter acts Glutamate's action on the CNS). The neurosteroids both agonize GABAA receptors and potentiate GABA's action on GABAA leading to sedation of the CNS, senses of well-being, euphoria, sleep, anti-stress, anti-anxiety, anti-depression, and anti-inflammation. In PFS, GABAA receptors are very upregulated because of this blockage from Finasteride and other 5ARIs. This also causes excess Glutamate signaling, since it can no longer convert, leading to neuro-inflammation, damage to neurons, cognitive impairment, anxiety, restlessness, brain fog, insomnia, excess pain signaling, and the list goes.

    This is why I personally have not been a fan of prohormones with EpiAndrosterone in them. It's just going to potentially lead to further issues in those who have too little GABA and severely upregulated GABAA receptors. Supplementing Pregnenolone and DHEA is the same story. Pregnenolone splits off into other pathways other than progesterone. It also goes into the sulfated form, Pregnenolone Sulfate, which causes exactly what I outlined above. DHEA directly stimulates glutamate production and DHEA Sulfate, the metabolite of DHEA, antagonizes GABAA.

    Personally, I have used those compounds in the past and they never helped me at all. Pregnenolone at one point made feel way worse neurologically. I dropped those altogether and just went straight for progesterone, testosterone (with an AI always, force that DHT), DHP, and Androsterone. All of that bypasses those pathways with those metabolites that antagonize GABAA and stimulate Glutamate.

    That being said, there are times when it's justified in some PFS'ers to use Pregnenolone and DHEA supplementation. You can easily get a doctor to test those (if they're personally willing) and determine if you're low in them. Ideally, you want to be smack dab in the center of the reference ranges. If adequate or higher, you do not want to do it. Bad idea.
    Thanks for the well thought out response man. I appreciate it

  9. #29
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    Could you in a way counteract the epi with big doses of theanine to partially activate the glutamate instead?

  10. #30
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    I oddly respond better to the blend of Epi and Andro (Ultra Hard) rather than just pure Andro.

    I somewhat enjoy the stimulating effect Epi has, whereas I just donít feel pure Andro as much. I think others have responded better to the blend as well. Maybe thereís some genetic variance here?

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