Giving you the chance to address my accusations.

[Pageidol]

Guys lets not give this thread anymore fuel. I don’t wanna see it anymore 👍

[Maxout777]

Can we just ban this shill already? He operates on zero logic and bold claims at best. Just a modern day Michael Moore....what's your best conspiracy theory?

[Swill]

OK, i wanted to chime in for a couple of reasons, the main one being that I don't want people new to the table being put off by the nonsense in this thread and remaining in the pit of despair all because of the idiocy of accusations. I also don't like the point of a personal attack on someone that has spent a lot of time helping myself and many others. In truth, I hope CD doesn't respond and doesn't get into this pointless ego battle, he has better things to do and has almost been drawn away from helping in the past because of needless attack...

PVDL, i will be frank that my opinion of you is low with the manner of your attacks, both on this forum and the other where you have attack on anyone who had the audacity to question the fairness of your attack. I know you dont care in that regard, and nor will I lose sleep with your thoughts on me. It was the first time in a long time i visited that forum as I have had similar bad experiences with many of those that mention it here when I used to look on it. I found it a cess pit of despair and everyone wallowing in how fucked they are, rather than supportive.

I find your choice to post in a public forum yet demand the answers from one person only bizarre.... if you wanted a conversation with one person there are Private Message features you can use without 'getting your name in lights'. That being said, what I am saying in this post is not going to attack you personally but answer the questions of yours that I can, not for your benefit but for that of those observing this thread in the future. After all, you are never going to change your views on the methods we choose to implement here, and that is absolutely your prerogative and entirely your choice. I want the people starting this journey to know the below on this matter, and to give hope in that regard...

1) with regard to CD's integrity, I met him and began discussion with him through the forum you frequent following his recovery post. Until that point I had been in a really bad place for over a year after being hit with the finasteride sides very heavily. At that stage a number of years back there were no studies or anything of the sort aside from the one with the Dr making a link between fin and persistent sexual side effects. I had seen multiple doctors who were proven to be frauds and travelled across the world for the UK to the USA to see Dr Crisler, I was prescribed a tonne of various medications to 'help' and it was truly what you would call 'home-brew,' in my scared and damaged state I was milked for lots of money by a quack and all the medications actually made me feel a lot worse. So i get where you are coming from with many to be in this for a quick buck and to milk the vulnerable. It does go on.

2) I dont consider what CD recommends as part of his protocol to be 'homebrew,' its principles are based around giving the body the perfect conditions to heal itself with time. Things that even were you not to have a condition like PFS would make you feel great and improve your performance. The main principles being healthful diet, good quality sleep and relaxation, exercise and stress management.

3) Your main bug-bare is the use of the herbs, due to the financial outlay, and you continually mention the necessity for 21 herbs. Herbs are different to a harsh, synthetic pharmaceutical in that they provide a gentle nudge in the right direction. As they are working on your bodies natural systems via various means, your body builds up a tolerance quite quickly. I have always been quite athletic and had supplemented with tribulus and horny goat weed for their purported natural benefit by taking them daily, and after a week after initially feeling benefit I was getting nothing from them. You may have experienced the same thing if you have ever used a 'pre workout' stimulant for resistance weight training in the gym, whereby you have to continually have to take more and more for the same effect. It is not true and has been clarified elsewhere that you do not need 21 herbs to have any benefit, it is recommended that you don't take the same herb for a week after taking to ensure that a tolerance isn't built up. I started with 7 years and built up as i've gone along... some work better than others on me, and I've heard others say the ones i don't get the most from are their favourites, but i've found the more variation in the rotation, the better the effects and the longer apart the herbs are taken the more punch they pack. There are not many scientific studies regarding the efficacy and effects of various herbs, due largely to the fact natural herbs can't be patented so the pharma companies (who fund the vast majority of studies undertaken) have no interest in funding such studies as there are no bucks to be made.

4) CD doesn't say take these herbs and they will magically cure, there is no 'silver bullet,' but the herbs are great at nudging you in the right direction providing the other elements are dialled in (diet, rest, exercise, etc.). It wont get you better over night, often not in months, its literally a means to help mother nature along and can take months or even years. There is no promise of instant salvation and if you dont do the hard yards yourself (be disciplined with diet, train and improve your physical health) then things wont get better with you just by taking some herbs.

5) The presence of the PFS section in this board is relatively new, this is a bodybuilding forum and the reason this section is here is because so many people began searching out CD and bombarding him with questions and derailing threads here which were predominantly for bodybuilding. That is why this was created, CD didn't search it out. If you look on here at threads from a few years back before there was a significant PFS presence the posters on this board considered CD to be very well versed in the field of hormonal optimisation using natural means. He actually lists in a thread the herbs he used. This was long before any web site, long before any affiliation scheme, just information sharing amongst friends. He shared the herbs he used with me long before I was on this board and I had actually come across lost empire (or super man herbs as it was known) before my dealings with CD when searching out good quality herbs. The problem with herbs is that as they are not standardised due them not being patentable (you can't patent nature) the quality and standard of them is massively variable, and many of the brands are worthless and a waste of money. LHE provide lab analysis of their herbs to demonstrate they are what they say and from experience I find the quality of them to be very good, having used a number of brands. CD has recommended to me and many others long before the affiliate links the exact product he does now. The affiliate link does not result in the mark up in the cost of the herbs, simply means he gets a percentage of the fee should someone choose click through from his site, for the same products he always has recommended anyway. I'd recommend anyone looking to consider trying the herbs to buy 7, see how you find them, and you can make your own decision as to whether they're snake oil from there. However and very importantly, people should do their research to make sure they are a reputable brand.

6) Regarding the study, I get the importance you put into the foundation and the work they do, I've had many Skype calls with Philip Roberts and helped with their patient support program and have found them to be sound and have integrity from all my dealings... copied below regarding this matter is what i said in a previous thread regarding the studies which covers my thoughts on this matter...

"I get the studies, i even went out of my way to take part in the baylor study and flew to texas a couple days after my wedding to do so. The reason? they were struggling to fill participants and i wanted to 'do my bit.' The reason for me personally taking part was to get the study completed, to potentially raise awareness, and to hopefully lead to more people not making the mistake i did in taking finasteride. There will never be a silver bullet, and I agree with CD in his belief that the drug will never get banned (unless a more marketable drug comes along). I even let them take a penile biopsy of me (they cut a bit of skin off where the dick joins the foreskin for analysis)... I'd say that was doing my bit haha.

I met Dr Khera during the study, he was very nice and a good guy. I briefly discussed recovery and he said healthy holistic lifestyle is where he had seen improvements in his patients (diet, exercise, rest, stress-relief). I explained i rotated herbs, he understood the reasons for doing so with regard to tolerance. I mentioned I fasted, he didn't profess to be an expert but saw the reasoning for that too. He had nothing bad to say about anything i mentioned. After all, the majority of the protocol is based around his 4 key principles for recovery. Dr Khera also mentioned that he has indeed witnessed patients affected by PFS for a long period who then go on to make a recovery. He agreed on the importance of mindset and relieving stress due to the obvious cortisol responses and stressors etc.

I dont even know if baylor has been published, despite, taking part. Last time i looked maybe 2 years ago it hadn't been. If it has, hopefully its existence has put people off taking the drug in the future, the ONLY reason for which i took part."

7) The protocol CD has devised isn't promising a silver bullet. It takes a lot of hard fucking work, and more dedication than anything I had to that point given to anything in my life. Many people for that reason will not get better, because they wont stick to what is needed (mostly the diet and exercise element, taking in herbs daily is the easy part). It should also be noted that the majority of the measures to take recommended by CD are totally free.

8) I am a living breathing case study that this thing works, its taken me a number of years and I've gone from feeling like hell, like some of the worst symptom lists you read on the various sites, unable to sleep, concentrate or function physically or sexually... to back to a point where I am truly happy and fulfilled life, I sleep like a baby, earn money from playing sport and function at a high level physically. Sexually, I am still not at 100% from a libido perspective but more often than not I am very good, in the last week I have had sex five times, and all have been great.

I'm back at a stage where I would be happy to live where I am for the rest of my life, and I do owe one hell of a lot to the guy you are attempting to character assassinate. It would have bugged me not to put my two sense in with the previous sentence in mind.

I will not be drawn into back and forth regarding this matter, it is Christmas time and I am looking forward to spending it with my loved ones and friends and dont have the time or inclination to argue over a message board on something I am proud of having success in overcoming. Heres wishing everyone here, PVDL included, a happy and healthy 2018. We've all been dealt a shitty hand and deserve some good fortune accordingly.

[jacknap]

a lot of pvdl's questions have went in my head as well when I first started. But I started the protocol anyways and I've been recovering just the way CD explains. A little better % each month. Upswings and down swings. PVDL instead just chooses to sit on these negative questions and not do anything.

I can empathize cause my parents are kinda negative like this too. It's clear that pvdl has done his homework on cd eg) knowing what cd does for work, knowing that lost empire gives 30% comish etc.

Waiting for scientists who do not have the same sense of urgency to fix your condition as you do I think is the foolish thing to do. But whatever. Different people make the world go round. If your foundation, or cdnuts, or hack stasis finds the fastest cure. I'm all about it. Generally in life though the things that take work and time are the answer, so that's why I've chosen cd's route up till now.

[Swill]

OK, i wanted to chime in for a couple of reasons, the main one being that I don't want people new to the table being put off by the nonsense in this thread and remaining in the pit of despair all because of the idiocy of accusations. I also don't like the point of a personal attack on someone that has spent a lot of time helping myself and many others. In truth, I hope CD doesn't respond and doesn't get into this pointless ego battle, he has better things to do and has almost been drawn away from helping in the past because of needless attack...

PVDL, i will be frank that my opinion of you is low with the manner of your attacks, both on this forum and the other where you have attack on anyone who had the audacity to question the fairness of your attack. I know you dont care in that regard, and nor will I lose sleep with your thoughts on me. It was the first time in a long time i visited that forum as I have had similar bad experiences with many of those that mention it here when I used to look on it. I found it a cess pit of despair and everyone wallowing in how fucked they are, rather than supportive.

I find your choice to post in a public forum yet demand the answers from one person only bizarre.... if you wanted a conversation with one person there are Private Message features you can use without 'getting your name in lights'. That being said, what I am saying in this post is not going to attack you personally but answer the questions of yours that I can, not for your benefit but for that of those observing this thread in the future. After all, you are never going to change your views on the methods we choose to implement here, and that is absolutely your prerogative and entirely your choice. I want the people starting this journey to know the below on this matter, and to give hope in that regard...

1) with regard to CD's integrity, I met him and began discussion with him through the forum you frequent following his recovery post. Until that point I had been in a really bad place for over a year after being hit with the finasteride sides very heavily. At that stage a number of years back there were no studies or anything of the sort aside from the one with the Dr making a link between fin and persistent sexual side effects. I had seen multiple doctors who were proven to be frauds and travelled across the world for the UK to the USA to see Dr Crisler, I was prescribed a tonne of various medications to 'help' and it was truly what you would call 'home-brew,' in my scared and damaged state I was milked for lots of money by a quack and all the medications actually made me feel a lot worse. So i get where you are coming from with many to be in this for a quick buck and to milk the vulnerable. It does go on.

2) I dont consider what CD recommends as part of his protocol to be 'homebrew,' its principles are based around giving the body the perfect conditions to heal itself with time. Things that even were you not to have a condition like PFS would make you feel great and improve your performance. The main principles being healthful diet, good quality sleep and relaxation, exercise and stress management.

3) Your main bug-bare is the use of the herbs, due to the financial outlay, and you continually mention the necessity for 21 herbs. Herbs are different to a harsh, synthetic pharmaceutical in that they provide a gentle nudge in the right direction. As they are working on your bodies natural systems via various means, your body builds up a tolerance quite quickly. I have always been quite athletic and had supplemented with tribulus and horny goat weed for their purported natural benefit by taking them daily, and after a week after initially feeling benefit I was getting nothing from them. You may have experienced the same thing if you have ever used a 'pre workout' stimulant for resistance weight training in the gym, whereby you have to continually have to take more and more for the same effect. It is not true and has been clarified elsewhere that you do not need 21 herbs to have any benefit, it is recommended that you don't take the same herb for a week after taking to ensure that a tolerance isn't built up. I started with 7 years and built up as i've gone along... some work better than others on me, and I've heard others say the ones i don't get the most from are their favourites, but i've found the more variation in the rotation, the better the effects and the longer apart the herbs are taken the more punch they pack. There are not many scientific studies regarding the efficacy and effects of various herbs, due largely to the fact natural herbs can't be patented so the pharma companies (who fund the vast majority of studies undertaken) have no interest in funding such studies as there are no bucks to be made.

4) CD doesn't say take these herbs and they will magically cure, there is no 'silver bullet,' but the herbs are great at nudging you in the right direction providing the other elements are dialled in (diet, rest, exercise, etc.). It wont get you better over night, often not in months, its literally a means to help mother nature along and can take months or even years. There is no promise of instant salvation and if you dont do the hard yards yourself (be disciplined with diet, train and improve your physical health) then things wont get better with you just by taking some herbs.

5) The presence of the PFS section in this board is relatively new, this is a bodybuilding forum and the reason this section is here is because so many people began searching out CD and bombarding him with questions and derailing threads here which were predominantly for bodybuilding. That is why this was created, CD didn't search it out. If you look on here at threads from a few years back before there was a significant PFS presence the posters on this board considered CD to be very well versed in the field of hormonal optimisation using natural means. He actually lists in a thread the herbs he used. This was long before any web site, long before any affiliation scheme, just information sharing amongst friends. He shared the herbs he used with me long before I was on this board and I had actually come across lost empire (or super man herbs as it was known) before my dealings with CD when searching out good quality herbs. The problem with herbs is that as they are not standardised due them not being patentable (you can't patent nature) the quality and standard of them is massively variable, and many of the brands are worthless and a waste of money. LHE provide lab analysis of their herbs to demonstrate they are what they say and from experience I find the quality of them to be very good, having used a number of brands. CD has recommended to me and many others long before the affiliate links the exact product he does now. The affiliate link does not result in the mark up in the cost of the herbs, simply means he gets a percentage of the fee should someone choose click through from his site, for the same products he always has recommended anyway. I'd recommend anyone looking to consider trying the herbs to buy 7, see how you find them, and you can make your own decision as to whether they're snake oil from there. However and very importantly, people should do their research to make sure they are a reputable brand.

6) Regarding the study, I get the importance you put into the foundation and the work they do, I've had many Skype calls with Philip Roberts and helped with their patient support program and have found them to be sound and have integrity from all my dealings... copied below regarding this matter is what i said in a previous thread regarding the studies which covers my thoughts on this matter...

"I get the studies, i even went out of my way to take part in the baylor study and flew to texas a couple days after my wedding to do so. The reason? they were struggling to fill participants and i wanted to 'do my bit.' The reason for me personally taking part was to get the study completed, to potentially raise awareness, and to hopefully lead to more people not making the mistake i did in taking finasteride. There will never be a silver bullet, and I agree with CD in his belief that the drug will never get banned (unless a more marketable drug comes along). I even let them take a penile biopsy of me (they cut a bit of skin off where the dick joins the foreskin for analysis)... I'd say that was doing my bit haha.

I met Dr Khera during the study, he was very nice and a good guy. I briefly discussed recovery and he said healthy holistic lifestyle is where he had seen improvements in his patients (diet, exercise, rest, stress-relief). I explained i rotated herbs, he understood the reasons for doing so with regard to tolerance. I mentioned I fasted, he didn't profess to be an expert but saw the reasoning for that too. He had nothing bad to say about anything i mentioned. After all, the majority of the protocol is based around his 4 key principles for recovery. Dr Khera also mentioned that he has indeed witnessed patients affected by PFS for a long period who then go on to make a recovery. He agreed on the importance of mindset and relieving stress due to the obvious cortisol responses and stressors etc.

I dont even know if baylor has been published, despite, taking part. Last time i looked maybe 2 years ago it hadn't been. If it has, hopefully its existence has put people off taking the drug in the future, the ONLY reason for which i took part."

7) The protocol CD has devised isn't promising a silver bullet. It takes a lot of hard fucking work, and more dedication than anything I had to that point given to anything in my life. Many people for that reason will not get better, because they wont stick to what is needed (mostly the diet and exercise element, taking in herbs daily is the easy part). It should also be noted that the majority of the measures to take recommended by CD are totally free.

8) I am a living breathing case study that this thing works, its taken me a number of years and I've gone from feeling like hell, like some of the worst symptom lists you read on the various sites, unable to sleep, concentrate or function physically or sexually... to back to a point where I am truly happy and fulfilled life, I sleep like a baby, earn money from playing sport and function at a high level physically. Sexually, I am still not at 100% from a libido perspective but more often than not I am very good, in the last week I have had sex five times, and all have been great.

I'm back at a stage where I would be happy to live where I am for the rest of my life, and I do owe one hell of a lot to the guy you are attempting to character assassinate. It would have bugged me not to put my two sense in with the previous sentence in mind.

I will not be drawn into back and forth regarding this matter, it is Christmas time and I am looking forward to spending it with my loved ones and friends and dont have the time or inclination to argue over a message board on something I am proud of having success in overcoming. Heres wishing everyone here, PVDL included, a happy and healthy 2018. We've all been dealt a shitty hand and deserve some good fortune accordingly.

FYI for some reason only the last two paragraphs of my post are visible on tapatalk, but for some reason on my laptop you can see my full post (there is quite a bit more)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hulk Smash]

I asked for scientific proof that CD's regimen will not produce recovery.
None has been given.

At this point I'll even consider the proof of PVDL's experience of him living the protocol for a year.
I'm pretty sure he didn't.

This is sounding more and more like you either don't believe PFS is curable without the foundation or you're jealous of CD's success. Maybe its both and its also possible you work for a research company and you're trying to get more funds.
Or maybe you're the Grinch trying to steal ruin Christmas for all of us???
See PVDL...anyone can throw out random conspiracy theories.

In the end anyone using logic, reason and science can give at least 50 reasons why all the herbs are beneficial to all people.

PVDL I'm calling you out!
Tell me your proof that these herbs and regimen don't work, you salty bitch!

[Master Mal]

[Pageidol]

Merry Christmas Everyone!

Jimmy

[Zerolibido]

Some nice words to be fair

I didn't even need the protocl.to get libido back

I wish I'd locked it I with TR T though

- - - Updated - - -

I can't believe i took a pharmaceutical, does it fall under homebrew!?

[Zerolibido]

I recovered my libido On zinc and cut d cheap bottles of

I was doing Mark Lawson boost your pot stuff like him I here is and they worke

I should have done TR T OR at least gone to the gym