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  1. #1
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 Damn's Avatar
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    Damn...Getting Close with a Lifetime to Optimize

    Hi all,

    I joined the forum at the beginning of this year and have chimed in a handful of times here and there, although, I never officially introduced myself. So, here I am...Damn

    Before I get into the gory details, I would like to start by saying that, on protocol, I am currently at around 85-90% of my overall pre-Fin baseline (and actually above 100% in some areas due to all of the positive life changes I've made). This estimate is based on the fact that almost all of my symptoms are gone/nearly gone almost all of the time (I will get into more details on this later). It objectively takes into consideration age related factors (I am now 51), and being honest with myself re: my ability to recall with exact precision exactly how I looked or felt a year and a half ago (I was just not that intimately familiar with things like the texture of my nut sack back then ).

    So, with that, here’s my story. I took Fin for 10 days in July of 2016 and then quit due to overwhelming fatigue & sleepiness. A couple days after quitting, my nuts started to ache fiercely and my left tit got a tad droopy. I went to my GP who had originally prescribed (she told me it was in my head) and a urologist (she told me it was just a transient issue that would clear up in a week or two). Well, you know the punchline…within a week, I was completely in the shit.

    Symptoms (in no particular order) included:
    • Aching & atrophying nuts
    • Sweaty, cellophane skinned, constantly expanding & contracting scrotum (left testicle was actually laying sideways in the sack…you can’t make this shit up!)
    • Swollen, saggy and painful tits
    • Lost over 15 pounds of mostly lean mass (from an already thin 145 pounds to a skeletal sub-130)
    • Extreme thinning specifically in face, forearms, wrists & thighs
    • Bloating around hips & abdomen
    • Dry and thinning skin
    • No oil on face or forehead
    • No sweat or body odor (except for a pencil eraser sized spot in my right pit that smelled funky as hell)
    • Dry and super wiry hair (preferred my thinning hair to my new Brillo pad)
    • Knee & wrist pain and cracking
    • Low body temp (low 97s) and low pulse (upper 40s at rest)
    • Reduced visual acuity (not so much blurry, but muted like an iPhone photo filter)
    • Dry, tired & bloodshot eyes
    • Dry mouth (especially at night)
    • Transient rash over large parts of abdomen
    • Vacillation between extreme anxiety and inability to give a shit about anything
    • Difficulty with memory, concentrating & critical thinking (challenging as I regularly consult to a number of Fortune 500 CXOs)
    • Challenged to find words when speaking (a big change for me as I previously performed improv at Second City)
    • Physical clumsiness (kept dropping, banging into and knocking things over)
    • Able to fall asleep OK but would wake up multiple times a night with heart racing and difficulty falling back asleep
    • No dreams
    • Extreme muscle fatigue (body felt like when you have the flu)
    • Overwhelming sleepiness throughout the day
    • Regularly numb lower arms and hands, arms falling asleep at night even without lying on them (anyone else have this? It is one thing that still bothers me fairly regularly)
    • Sore jaw & teeth (had to quit Invisalign treatment a month before I was finished as teeth literally became wiggly)
    • Frequent, immediate need to piss
    • Pain in lower abdomen (prostate?)
    • Patchy loss of and slowing growth of facial hair
    • Complete rubber dick which (thank God) transitioned over a couple weeks to just a loss of sensation (to varying degrees) and difficulty achieving & maintaining an erection without constant stimulation & focus
    • Potato in a sock dick when flaccid (skin was also very thin, soft and tacky feeling…felt more like a synthetic material than skin)
    • No nocturnal erections/morning wood
    • No precum, watery & lumpy ejaculate
    • Interesting note: Besides the first couple weeks while I was shitting myself over all of this, I never really had significant libido issues (I've always been a horny mofo )

    As the symptoms stacked up, I started doing my research and like most of you, I stumbled across PH. Thankfully, without spending too much time getting sucked into that cesspool of despair, good fortune led me to a post from a guy in Italy who had fully recovered and I was able to have a couple conversations with him. That was exactly what I needed to truly believe that I could & would recover from this (I believe this to be the most critical factor in my recovery journey and why I feel this site here is so damn important). Between his advice and another great website I found (no longer exists…I believe the guy’s name was Josh Abrhams), I began to focus on healing my adrenals, thyroid & gut. I built a diet, supplement & lifestyle (e.g. sleep, stress management, avoiding xenoestrogens, exercise, avoiding PH like the fucking plague and just enjoying life) plan around these three things. I did not try to solve for specific PFS symptoms. My guiding principal was the firm belief that my body wanted to & was capable of healing itself and bringing itself back to homeostasis…all I could do was put it in the best possible position do so. I knew trying to manage to individual symptoms, hormone levels, etc. would be an exercise in futility. I now had my plan and committed to stick to it religiously.

    As an aside…during all this, a friend got me into see the top endocrinologist at one of the country’s leading university research hospitals in Chicago (worse than worthless). Had T of 177 (250-1100), Free T of 23 (35-155), LH of 0.8 (1.2-8.6), DHT of 17 (16-79) and E2 of 11.7 (23.8-52.2). He told me I shouldn’t worry about the low T because it was “barely below normal”…WTF?. He also literally laughed when I told him I was completely normal a couple weeks earlier and that I believed it was Fin that had caused this. This just reinforced early that this one was gonna be all up to me (with, of course, the invaluable information & insights from many of those that were here before me).

    Things were pretty tough through the end of 2016, but I stuck to the plan. Over the course of 2017, I would have a couple of months progressing towards recovery and then, like Groundhog Day, the shadow of achy nuts would reappear and I’d have six more weeks of winter . It was a 2 month forward, 1 month back cycle…sound familiar? During the fall of 2017 I had a pretty bad crash, but picked myself up by the bootstraps and, you guessed it, stuck with the plan. I did tinker a bit here and there with my diet, supplements, lifestyle, etc. over the year to fine tune for my body’s specific needs. I worked with a natural nutritionist who helped me understand how to use food (types, frequencies, ratios, etc.) to help support cellular health, functioning and energy production to establish an overall ecosystem for recovery. During this time, I kept a journal which really helped me to objectively understand the effect of these changes, identify positive & negative triggers, etc. I was careful, however, not to be too reactive to every little symptom change, but to really listen to what my body was telling me overall and try to meet its needs at a macro level as it dealt with the details. All while sticking to the plan.

    Towards the end of 2017, my recovery/downswing cycle was getting much more stable and I knew without a doubt that I would be back to my old self soon. The issue now was I could no longer be satisfied with getting back to the status quo of my life before Fin. All the research I had done, all the healthy living, all the discipline I learned, all the positive results made we want more. I decided to see what I could do to push myself not only over the hump, but beyond. So, I went out on the interwebs to see what I could find. Good fortune struck again and I happened across TMO ("optimization" was the perfect word for what I was looking for) where I found what I believe to be a few of the missing links in my evolution. I added heavy lifting & HIIT, a broader herb rotation (was already taking a number of these) and those cold fucking showers (I have to admit I have developed quite an addiction to those ) to my plan…and stuck to it.

    So here I am, four months later. As I mentioned earlier, I can honestly say I am at 85-90% of my pre-Fin baseline (this is on protocol…I have no idea if this would be the case off it or not, but I have no reason to go off so I don’t give a fuck, pvdl). This means, even when I trough, I am never below 85-90% on any one thing. Every couple weeks, I seem to have a mild hormonal imbalance that lasts a day or so. This usually consists of some breast puffiness, some minor fatigue and some flaccid penis shapeshifting (and occasionally some testicle pain which no longer freaks me out like it used to). I have actually correlated these occurrences to stress and find I am definitely more sensitive to it right now. In some ways, I see this as a positive because it keeps me acutely aware of stress and how to manage it which should end up adding years to my life in the long run. Other than that, all of my other symptoms are gone or at least 90% recovered. And in case you young lads were concerned about me, I have absolutely no problems pounding it out with my beautiful, and much younger, girlfriend on pretty much a daily basis .

    But let’s get back to “optimization” and those areas where I am above 100% of my pre-Fin self. I am honestly in my best shape since my high school wrestling days. I love lifting hard so much I get bummed on off days (I’m actually glad I waited a while to start lifting because I am so into it I think I would have overdone it too early when my body wasn’t ready yet). My self-confidence is through the roof and I have more mental & physical discipline & toughness than I have ever had (trust me, this turns on the ladies far more than a head of hair ever will). I have also become a much more patient & caring person with my family, friends & people I don’t even know. I have my priorities in order and frankly don’t give a shit about all the petty stuff that used to get my panties in a bunch. As ridiculous as it may sound, I think this may be the best thing that ever happened to me in some ways and I thank God that I can pass these lessons along to my son. I know I may have made it sound like this was easy and I breezed through it, but rest assured, I struggled as much as anyone else with fear, anger, self-pity, self-doubt, etc.. I just knew, in the end, I had no other choice for me, for my son & for my girlfriend (I also thank them for their amazing support through all of this).

    I hope to continue my recovery & optimization journey here and continue to learn from all of you who have had your own successes (and setbacks) while improving yourselves. I hope I can contribute something back, as well, and am wide open to questions any of you may have.

    One last thing…ironically, my hair is coming back. The woman who cuts my hair has even mentioned it the last couple haircuts…go fucking figure. I may shave it anyway…just because .
    Last edited by Damn; 04-30-2018 at 10:26 AM.

  2. #2
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    Your story sounds more like my own then any others I've read, specifically the initial muscle loss, weakness/numbness. Did you find that it worsened after eating?

    I thought I was over this problem, I've been physically strong for months now, and only minor gurgles in my bowel but I'm having a bad downswing and the weakness/fatigue has come back, also pounding heart that wakes me up every two hours.

  3. #3
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 Damn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by basementdweller View Post
    Your story sounds more like my own then any others I've read, specifically the initial muscle loss, weakness/numbness. Did you find that it worsened after eating?

    I thought I was over this problem, I've been physically strong for months now, and only minor gurgles in my bowel but I'm having a bad downswing and the weakness/fatigue has come back, also pounding heart that wakes me up every two hours.
    Hey BD, A couple thoughts for what it’s worth.

    First, downswings (although they suck) seem to be par for the course. If you are sticking to the protocol, I would say they are typically nothing to get too worked up about. That said, I know mental/emotional stress was a key trigger for a number of my downswings. If eating is one of yours, It could be due to an inflammatory response in the gut. I have not read your previous posts so not sure what your diet looks like (there are a number of foods, even in the paleo diet that can be problematic for certain people) or what you have done/are doing to address gut issues (if you’re on this forum, I'm guessing you had/have them , so guessing this may be a great place to start. This inflammation (read stress), along with all the other mental, emotional & physical stressors (guessing you have a few of these too), can result in elevated cortisol levels and disruption of the cortisol circadian rhythm resulting in hormonal imbalances and sleep issues. These issues are then further exacerbated due to our already FUBAR'd systems. There are a number of protocol steps on TMO that address these areas and a lot of great advice in posts from other members, but I'm also glad to discuss specific thoughts on diet and healing the gut based on my own experiences if you're interested. These are the foundational things we must all take care of in order to provide our bodies the best environment to heal themselves. You may already be on top of all this and it's just taking some time (the gut does not heal overnight). If that's the case, just keep with it...as CD says, it's about persistence & consistency.
    Last edited by Damn; 03-22-2018 at 04:18 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damn View Post
    Hey BD, A couple thoughts for what it’s worth.

    First, downswings (although they suck) seem to be par for the course. If you are sticking to the protocol, I would say they are typically nothing to get too worked up about. That said, I know mental/emotional stress was a key trigger for a number of my downswings. If eating is one of yours, It could be due to an inflammatory response in the gut. I have not read your previous posts so not sure what your diet looks like (there are a number of foods, even in the paleo diet that can be problematic for certain people) or what you have done/are doing to address gut issues (if you’re on this forum, I'm guessing you had/have them , so guessing this may be a great place to start. This inflammation (read stress), along with all the other mental, emotional & physical stressors (guessing you have a few of these too), can result in elevated cortisol levels and disruption of the cortisol circadian rhythm resulting in hormonal imbalances and sleep issues. These issues are then further exacerbated due to our already FUBAR'd systems. There are a number of protocol steps on TMO that address these areas and a lot of great advice in posts from other members, but I'm also glad to discuss specific thoughts on diet and healing the gut based on my own experiences if you're interested. These are the foundational things we must all take care of in order to provide our bodies the best environment to heal themselves. You may already be on top of all this and it's just taking some time (the gut does not heal overnight). If that's the case, just keep with it...as CD says, it's about persistence & consistency.
    Thanks for the response. I think creatine may have triggered it this time but can never be sure. And I was so happy that creatine hcl wasn't causing gut problems, fuck.

    I eliminated most red meat, fruit and honey. Red meat and fructose are very problematic for me
    I avoid gluten and most sugar as per
    I have added probiotics in supplement and food form, I take digestive enzymes with larger meals and just started taking glutamine as well


    My typical diet is:

    am: poached eggs, non-gluten toast, butter, orange juice

    snack: protein shake, spirulina, banana

    lunch: fish, vegetables, rice/potato/sorghum, sauerkraut

    dinner: chicken or fish, potatoes, salad

    snack: kefir, yoghurt, oats, herbal tea


    my cortisol was tested high back when I was in a constant state of panic, but I am generally calmer now. The protocol and my own adjustments are paying off but I've had a hell of a downturn recently. Congrats on your progress, btw

  5. #5
    Moderator Feedback Score 0 Cdsnuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by basementdweller View Post
    Thanks for the response. I think creatine may have triggered it this time but can never be sure. And I was so happy that creatine hcl wasn't causing gut problems, fuck.

    I eliminated most red meat, fruit and honey. Red meat and fructose are very problematic for me
    I avoid gluten and most sugar as per
    I have added probiotics in supplement and food form, I take digestive enzymes with larger meals and just started taking glutamine as well


    My typical diet is:

    am: poached eggs, non-gluten toast, butter, orange juice

    snack: protein shake, spirulina, banana

    lunch: fish, vegetables, rice/potato/sorghum, sauerkraut

    dinner: chicken or fish, potatoes, salad

    snack: kefir, yoghurt, oats, herbal tea


    my cortisol was tested high back when I was in a constant state of panic, but I am generally calmer now. The protocol and my own adjustments are paying off but I've had a hell of a downturn recently. Congrats on your progress, btw
    Just looking at your diet, I can see something right away that could be problematic for someone with a PFS gut. You're including too many carbs with your meals imo. Try NOT having carbs during the day and only eating them with your dinner meal. You should also try taking a couple days off of them alltogether before just having with your dinner meal.

    When I say carbs, I mean complex carbs, not the fruit.
    Total Male Optimization "People who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt those that are doing it"

  6. #6
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 Damn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by basementdweller View Post
    Thanks for the response. I think creatine may have triggered it this time but can never be sure. And I was so happy that creatine hcl wasn't causing gut problems, fuck.

    I eliminated most red meat, fruit and honey. Red meat and fructose are very problematic for me
    I avoid gluten and most sugar as per
    I have added probiotics in supplement and food form, I take digestive enzymes with larger meals and just started taking glutamine as well


    My typical diet is:

    am: poached eggs, non-gluten toast, butter, orange juice

    snack: protein shake, spirulina, banana

    lunch: fish, vegetables, rice/potato/sorghum, sauerkraut

    dinner: chicken or fish, potatoes, salad

    snack: kefir, yoghurt, oats, herbal tea


    my cortisol was tested high back when I was in a constant state of panic, but I am generally calmer now. The protocol and my own adjustments are paying off but I've had a hell of a downturn recently. Congrats on your progress, btw

    Thanks BD. I have never taken creatine, so I have no insight there. Regarding your downtown, I don't think periodic downturns (especially early in your recovery) necessarily mean you're doing anything wrong. Everyday things our “normal” bodies used to take in stride can affect us in dramatic ways. Making major changes to your plan whenever this happens can just keep throwing it off even more...again with the persistence & consistency. That said, evaluation and active, paced management of your plan along the way is a good idea. Find what works for your body and realize that it’s needs will change as you progress towards recovery. You understand your body & what it is telling you better than anyone…trust your gut (no pun intended .

    Regarding your diet & gut health plan…in general, it looks pretty good to me (you have obviously done your homework here), but a few thoughts based on my experiences:

    Diet:

    Some general diet rules that work for me are: 1) eat within an hour of waking up, 2) eat at least 30 minutes before I drink coffee (I waited about a year before I started drinking it again due to adrenal issues)...when it kicks in I want some fuel in the tank to burn, 3) eat every 2-3 hours, 4) eat some protein, fat (I prefer saturated e.g. pastured meats, egg yolks, coconut oil, etc.) & carbs (I prefer tropical fruits or well cooked root vegetables) at every meal/snack. Among other benefits, these rules all help to ensure you maintain healthy blood sugar levels which (without getting into the physiology of it all here) is critical for adrenal, thyroid, gut, brain and overall health. Actually, not a fan of intermittent fasting during recovery for this reason. I think it has great benefits when healthy/optimizing, but I believe it can be too straining on the body at this point.

    I was extremely cautious of potentially inflammatory foods so I eliminated all grains, egg whites (eat tons of pastured egg yolks) and cow dairy (eat pastured goat kefir, goat feta & goat whey protein) and nuts from my "paleo" diet. Many people are fine with all of these, but I did not want to take the chance.

    Also, I know it’s terribly expensive, but I cannot over emphasize the importance of using pastured, grass fed & wild caught protein sources and organic fruits and root vegetables. The difference in nutrients and impact on the gut, liver, etc. are huge

    Gut health:

    So, the probiotics, enzymes w/s.boulardii (I take with every meal), l-glutamine (I did 4 tsp throughout the day for about a week and then tapered to 1 tsp a day…usually in a protein shake after working out) are all great. In addition, I also do beef gelatin (Great Lakes collagen hydrolysate mixed in with my goat kefir), homemade bone broth (I use grass fed bones) and Pau D'Arco tea (tastes a bit like wet cardboard so I add some lemon & fresh ginger).

    I also make sure my fruits are all ripe and that my root vegetables are well cooked to ease digestion.


    Again, this is all based on what I found worked for me...everybody is unique and requires their own personal tweaks to the recipe.

    Probably some things I am forgetting, but hope this may help. Keep up what you're doing and you’ll be out of that basement soon.
    Last edited by Damn; 03-25-2018 at 09:04 AM.
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  7. #7
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 0 jacknap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cdsnuts View Post
    Just looking at your diet, I can see something right away that could be problematic for someone with a PFS gut. You're including too many carbs with your meals imo. Try NOT having carbs during the day and only eating them with your dinner meal. You should also try taking a couple days off of them alltogether before just having with your dinner meal.

    When I say carbs, I mean complex carbs, not the fruit.
    I thought the same thing. you ever try paleo or keto for like 100% of the time + carb backloading like cd recommends? that would likely starve off most of your bad gut bacteria I'd wager...
    From rock bottom to rockstar, baby.

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    Damn...Getting Close with a Lifetime to Optimize

    Quote Originally Posted by jacknap View Post
    I thought the same thing. you ever try paleo or keto for like 100% of the time + carb backloading like cd recommends? that would likely starve off most of your bad gut bacteria I'd wager...
    Exactly......

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    Total Male Optimization "People who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt those that are doing it"

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    @damn, ya when I drink coffee it has to be with food, I've learned that. Regarding the bone broth, I drank it early post crash but it's so bloody expensive and I don't really have the space to make my own. I do take about 15 grams of glycine every night though which gives some of the same benefits.

    @cd, jacknap
    I have problems with low carb diets, I went pretty much paleo with backloading at first and struggled to keep weight on. When I went full paleo years ago for CFS, my liver enzymes tested high and I had shortness of breath, but that was a little more extreme. Dropping the morning carbs is definitely do-able, and maybe I will take just a little white rice with my lunch on training days and skip it on rest days. My OATS test didn't really show anything (I don't think) for bacterial imbalance.

    sorry to hijack this thread btw, damn
    Last edited by basementdweller; 03-23-2018 at 05:49 PM.

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    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 0 jacknap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by basementdweller View Post
    @damn, ya when I drink coffee it has to be with food, I've learned that. Regarding the bone broth, I drank it early post crash but it's so bloody expensive and I don't really have the space to make my own. I do take about 15 grams of glycine every night though which gives some of the same benefits.

    @cd, jacknap
    I have problems with low carb diets, I went pretty much paleo with backloading at first and struggled to keep weight on. When I went full paleo years ago for CFS, my liver enzymes tested high and I had shortness of breath, but that was a little more extreme. Dropping the morning carbs is definitely do-able, and maybe I will take just a little white rice with my lunch on training days and skip it on rest days. My OATS test didn't really show anything (I don't think) for bacterial imbalance.

    sorry to hijack this thread btw, damn
    post on your own thread and we'll take it from there? try making your coffee bulletproof style? eg) add grass fed butter, collagen, cocoa, mct oil and that should sustain u through the day...

    you're probably a fast oxidizer like I am too we both got that lean body naturally. tubzy is that too so we burn through food like crazy
    From rock bottom to rockstar, baby.

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