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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by LetsGo View Post
    Overall, I’ve had some tough days and I need to work on my sleep. But there’s been some promising development on the business front, and the dating front as well.

    I’m going to get into some stuff I’ve been reading about, but if I should delete any of this, I will go ahead and do that.

    Anyway, on PH, I read about a guy, Apr1989, who apparently cured his PFS relatively quickly (5 or 6 months, after about a year of suffering), using a tribulus cycling protocol that sounds interesting. He also used a microdose of a chemical castration drug called Triptorelin, which in small quantities stimulates your HTPA but in large doses, it overstimulates it and knocks if offline (which is how it’s used for prostate cancer.) It’s bioidentical to the hormone that the body uses to trigger puberty, but it seems scary nonetheless.

    I’ve been doing some reading on the active component of tribulus, protodioscin, and it has been shown in animals to increase androgen receptor density and activity in the brain. So it sounds like that would be very helpful for PFS, which is why it was perfect for it to have always been part of the herbal rotation. However… top-quality tribulus could arguably be the most powerful of the herbs, because restoring the androgen receptors in the brain is the hardest and most important part of recovering.

    *The major theory on PFS is that somehow, reducing your DHT levels or having them jump back up after quitting a 5AR inhibitor, somehow makes the brain resistent/immune to androgens.* That then causes the *brain fog*, loss of libido, loss of brain-penis connection, loss of ability to feel sexual pleasure and orgasms, hormone dysregulation, etc. This is why artificially targeting specific hormones with various drugs will never work. *You have to restore normal function of the brain’s androgen receptors*, and that’s what the TMO protocol has been able to do over time.

    Anyway, Apr1989’s idea was to restart his HTPA, and then use *tribulus to resensitize his androgen receptors*. In the comments on his post, tons of people tried using the wrong brands of tribulus, or took massive doses (which he said not to do,) or didn’t cycle it, or kept fapping while doing it, or didn’t taper up and taper down, etc. Basically 90% of the people ignored his protocol, and 5% accused him of being a scammer or not having real PFS. It seemed like nobody replicated exactly what he did, except that the last 5% of the guys made progress by following what he did with tribulus. I didn’t follow up to see if they made recovery posts or disappeared, but the point is that he wasn’t the only one who started making progress that built on itself over time.

    Tribulus
    The regular tribulus that you buy inexpensively is made from the fruit of the plant, but it’s low in protodioscin. Protodioscin is only produced in large amounts if the tribulus plant was grown in the Balkans - but the cheap stuff is generally grown in China where the climate and soil are different than in Bulgaria. The protodioscin is mainly found in the aerial parts of the plant (meaning everything except the fruit and roots,) but if you’re making trib pills, it’s incredibly expensive to only use 10% of the plant. That’s why the cheaper stuff is fruit-based China or US-grown tribulus, which is very low in protodioscin and therefore not that effective.

    The only company that uses only Bulgarian tribulus, and only the aerial portion of the plant, is Standard Process. There are other brands like Vemoherb and Tribestan that use Bulgarian tribulus, and a mix of aerial and fruit, so it still has protodioscin but it’s not as concentrated as Standard Process. From what this sounds like, basically most tribulus is not going to be very effective compared to this high-potency kind. The normal inexpensive trib will work as part of the overall TMO protocol (I’m sure there’s still some beneficial things in the fruit extract, including small amounts of protodioscin,) but the high-end tribulus should work better.

    To order Standard Process Tribulus, you have to get it through a healthcare provider, typically a chiropractor’s office or one of those non-Western medicine types of places. Naturopath doctors, acupuncturists, etc. The founder of the company believed in not compromising on the quality/purity, but also believed you needed to see some type of professional rather than just getting it on your own. The chiropractor’s office near me was willing to place the order without any type of appointment. I have a friend who is a naturopath doctor in Arizona, so she could probably place orders for me in the future. I put in an order of two bottles of the SP trib, but they’re not shipping for about 3 months.

    In the meantime, I bought some tribulus: Vemoherb and Tribestan, which are made in Bulgaria and are a mix of fruit and aerial extract. Since I’m waiting a little longer to go back to the gym, I started experimenting with Apr1989’s trib-only cycle and within a couple of days, I started getting random wood during the day (but still no morning wood,) and much higher libido, which was surprising. I feel this tribulus more powerfully than the normal herbal rotation that I’d been on, and this isn’t even the best tribulus.

    I’m not recommending that anyone else do this, it was just an experiment as I wait until Monday to get back into the gym. But my experience with tribulus has been very promising. I feel like if I was on this low dose trib cycle during an upswing, man, I’d probably feel like I was cured during that upswing. I don’t see much harm in experimenting with this tribulus cycle, but I wouldn’t recommend it because it doesn’t have much of a track record aside from a few guys. The TMO/CD protocol is the gold standard, and my recommendation would be to consider getting one of the high-end tribulus products to use in your rotation.

    My Test Levels?
    One of my concerns is that even when I’m lifting regularly and doing the herbal rotation, my testosterone is still low the vast majority of the time. (Morning wood is normally a good indicator of test.) I’ve had many upswings and overall I’m doing much better than I was, and I will get healed eventually, but I don’t expect to make any progress when I’m not working out.d

    It’s very annoying to make appointments with local doctors, but I’m thinking about finally getting my testosterone, DHT, etc, re-checked. (I won’t go on TRT or Clomid, obviously.) Mostly it would be so I could retest it 3 - 6 months later and see how much I’m able to boost it. Unfortunately, the at-home testosterone test kit companies do not ship to New York, it’s apparently illegal or something (probably BS lobbying by the doctors.)

    I feel like to get my levels consistently up, I might need to do a water fast, since I don’t want to go the pharma route of resorting to a microdose of Triptorelin. I don’t think the juice feast I did shuts down your HTPA like a water fast does, because your calories don’t reach a critically low level where your body starts shutting down “accessories” like your hormones. But that’s what I’m looking for, a HTPA reboot in a low-risk way. Because I feel like slowly raising it like 1% per month or whatever, is not going to cut it. In 2019 after I got mono and fasted, when I ate again, I felt amazing and had consistent morning wood through my upswings and downswings, for over half a year (ending only after several months of not working out at the gym, because it was closed due to Covid.) I feel like if the pandemic didn’t happen, I’d be cured by now.

    Next Steps
    I’m wrapping up the 8 day tribulus-only cycle. I will jump back into the workouts on Monday after getting my second vaccine dose, and add in HIIT on my off days like I’m supposed to. And then I’m also thinking about experimenting with alternating Apr1989’s tribulus cycle, and doing the TMO herbal rotation in between the trib cycles to see if that works better for me, given how good I’m feeling on the low dose of tribulus. I would do the 8-day trib cycle and then 8 or 13 days of the TMO herbal rotation. Then, when my androsterone arrives, I could do a cycle of that for 4 to 6 weeks, then go back to the TMO and Trib rotations for however long I did the andro cycle. Maybe throw in a water fast depending on how I’m feeling.
    Ok so a lot of information to go off here, but I want to make one thing clear, because a lot of what is written on PropeciaHelp is a load of pseudo-scientific nonsense, proposed by people who are either a. scientifically illiterate, b. haven't read any of the studies, or c. both of the aforementioned things. The idea that once the 5 AR inhibition is removed, a deluge of androgenic hormones (in this case DHT) is released, which then causes the now sensitized androgen receptors to shut down and become desensitized makes very little sense. If anything, what has been quantifiably proven is that there are in fact *more* androgen receptors than there were before, i.e. the androgen receptors should be more receptive than they were previously. Also, it doesn't explain why the same isn't true of the type 1 alpha-reductase enzyme, which can also be affected (especially with alternatives to finasteride, such as dutasteride) , and yet doesn't cause a shut down of the GABA A receptor once allopregnanolone floods the brain again.

    Therefore, the only reasonable deduction to make as to why androgen receptors are not functioning correctly is that an epigenetic change has occurred, where these receptors have become overly-methylated, and therefore cannot adequately react to hormones. If you believe this to be the case, it can be tested for, I'm pretty sure. Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS) & Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS) can be accurately diagnosed through genetic testing, amongst other biomarkers but I am of the opinion that these receptors aren't methylated in any case.

    The reason I bring all this up is that if it is indeed correct that the issue is that the androgen receptors have undergone epigenetic change, then I don't see how Tribulus would be beneficial in restoring proper receptor function, if the main mechanism of action is as you say (and I have read) increasing the number of androgen receptors.

    The final point I wish to make is that brain fog is not usually linked with the androgenic changes in the brain (despite brain fog being a common complaint of individuals with low testosterone), but rather the levels of allopregnanolone in the brain. This is why many individuals have seen their brain fog disappear with the alpha-reduced precursor to allopregnanolone, 5a-DHP, and why others have been able to use SSRIs to get rid of their brain fog (SSRIs are also used to increase the conversion rate of 5a-DHP to allopregnanolone). It's also the reason why brain fog, and other cognitive complaints, are rarer in PFS than sexual complaints (i.e. Finasteride preferentially targets the type 2 enzyme in lieu of the type 1)

    If you are especially keen on fixing these androgen receptors, I'd have a look at demethylating agents (things like butyrates can be helpful at this), although I would definitely ask a doctor to test you to see whether they have changed in the first place.

    Hope I haven't misinterpreted what you've written, and that you're doing ok.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by MungYarlon View Post
    Ok so a lot of information to go off here, but I want to make one thing clear, because a lot of what is written on PropeciaHelp is a load of pseudo-scientific nonsense, proposed by people who are either a. scientifically illiterate, b. haven't read any of the studies, or c. both of the aforementioned things. The idea that once the 5 AR inhibition is removed, a deluge of androgenic hormones (in this case DHT) is released, which then causes the now sensitized androgen receptors to shut down and become desensitized makes very little sense. If anything, what has been quantifiably proven is that there are in fact *more* androgen receptors than there were before, i.e. the androgen receptors should be more receptive than they were previously. Also, it doesn't explain why the same isn't true of the type 1 alpha-reductase enzyme, which can also be affected (especially with alternatives to finasteride, such as dutasteride) , and yet doesn't cause a shut down of the GABA A receptor once allopregnanolone floods the brain again.

    Therefore, the only reasonable deduction to make as to why androgen receptors are not functioning correctly is that an epigenetic change has occurred, where these receptors have become overly-methylated, and therefore cannot adequately react to hormones. If you believe this to be the case, it can be tested for, I'm pretty sure. Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS) & Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS) can be accurately diagnosed through genetic testing, amongst other biomarkers but I am of the opinion that these receptors aren't methylated in any case.

    The reason I bring all this up is that if it is indeed correct that the issue is that the androgen receptors have undergone epigenetic change, then I don't see how Tribulus would be beneficial in restoring proper receptor function, if the main mechanism of action is as you say (and I have read) increasing the number of androgen receptors.

    The final point I wish to make is that brain fog is not usually linked with the androgenic changes in the brain (despite brain fog being a common complaint of individuals with low testosterone), but rather the levels of allopregnanolone in the brain. This is why many individuals have seen their brain fog disappear with the alpha-reduced precursor to allopregnanolone, 5a-DHP, and why others have been able to use SSRIs to get rid of their brain fog (SSRIs are also used to increase the conversion rate of 5a-DHP to allopregnanolone). It's also the reason why brain fog, and other cognitive complaints, are rarer in PFS than sexual complaints (i.e. Finasteride preferentially targets the type 2 enzyme in lieu of the type 1)

    If you are especially keen on fixing these androgen receptors, I'd have a look at demethylating agents (things like butyrates can be helpful at this), although I would definitely ask a doctor to test you to see whether they have changed in the first place.

    Hope I haven't misinterpreted what you've written, and that you're doing ok.
    Thanks for your message. You seem to know more about the finer details and the science, and I probably shouldn’t have gotten into the whole speculation about how it helps or works, since there are many mysteries around PFS. Nobody has a specific disease model that has been accepted by the scientific community, and until that happens I’m not sure what the actual cause is.

    One thing to keep in mind is that the androgen receptor tests that have been done, at Baylor, were penile tests. PFS is a disorder of the brain and the HTPA, and in my opinion the penis is just along for the ride. That’s why guys getting analyses of their dicks end up not finding anything wrong - no nerve damage despite lack of sensitivity, normal receptors, etc.

    To do a test on the androgen receptors in the brain would require a tissue sample from the brain, from whatever specific region or regions. Obviously we can’t do that, and I’m not aware of PFS patients’ brains being studied after they die, to check the receptors. I don’t think it’s been done, so I don’t know what the brain receptors are like with PFS.

    The levels could be high in the penis and low in the brain - we don’t know. Also, we don’t know what tribulus does exactly, or how it works. Nobody will spend millions on a study for tribulus, because you can’t patent it like a drug, so there’s no funding for the study. If tribulus demethylated the methylated androgen receptors, I don’t think we’d know that based on the existing studies.

    I’m not really concerned with the actual scientific causes of PFS, or trying to micro-target one hormone or whatever. I’m only concerned with what works, in the safest and fastest way.

    If I thought that PFS was caused by gremlins who live on the moon, and that the CDsnuts protocol will scare off the moon gremlins, it wouldn’t matter. As long as you’re doing the steps to recover, it doesn’t matter if the person’s understanding of PFS or the cure is wrong.

    If we learn the true cause and you have something that laser targets that true cause, you could fix it fast. But there could be a constellation of things going on, maybe more than methylated receptors, maybe some factor science has never explored. Until there’s an accepted disease model, we don’t know the true cause and we just try to do the best we can.

    My guess is that there’s a complex web of things going on with PFS, and it involves androgen receptors in the brain, in some way. And I also believe that tribulus (Bulgarian aerial portions) helps that in some way.

    Apr1989 fully recovered with tribulus, and others made great progress, and the use of tribulus (at some level,) is a common thread among many recoveries, including CDsnuts and the recoveries from this board. I’m not sure if it’s a magic bullet, but it could be an under-used tool.

    I’ve noticed major libido and daytime erection gains on a low dose of tribulus, even as I taper off of it. It could be demethylating receptors, replacing methalyated ones with demethylated ones, chasing away moon gremlins, it’s all good.

    Tone can sometimes come across weird in text and I haven’t been getting good sleep, so I apologize if any of this came across as confrontational and not conversational. Thanks for taking the time out to comment, and I agree that PH is full of madness. I truly don’t know what causes PFS, just trying something that seems to be helping.

    I would not let a doctor take biopsies of my brain to test for the methylation level of my androgen receptors, and I don’t think you’d want me to either. I don’t think there’s any other way for them to test it.

    It seems like butyrates are from gut bacteria and eating fiber? I get lots of fiber and still have PFS, so I don’t know if that’s the key. Are there any specific probiotics or prebiotics you’d recommend, and did you make progress with them? I’m always willing to try safe non-pharma solutions

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by LIC2020 View Post
    Lol you mean people on PH didn’t follow a protocol and then claimed said protocol didn’t work?? Shocking
    lmao.
    Last edited by Cdsnuts; 03-25-2021 at 12:21 PM.
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  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by LetsGo View Post
    Thanks for your message. You seem to know more about the finer details and the science, and I probably shouldn’t have gotten into the whole speculation about how it helps or works, since there are many mysteries around PFS. Nobody has a specific disease model that has been accepted by the scientific community, and until that happens I’m not sure what the actual cause is.

    One thing to keep in mind is that the androgen receptor tests that have been done, at Baylor, were penile tests. PFS is a disorder of the brain and the HTPA, and in my opinion the penis is just along for the ride. That’s why guys getting analyses of their dicks end up not finding anything wrong - no nerve damage despite lack of sensitivity, normal receptors, etc.

    To do a test on the androgen receptors in the brain would require a tissue sample from the brain, from whatever specific region or regions. Obviously we can’t do that, and I’m not aware of PFS patients’ brains being studied after they die, to check the receptors. I don’t think it’s been done, so I don’t know what the brain receptors are like with PFS.

    The levels could be high in the penis and low in the brain - we don’t know. Also, we don’t know what tribulus does exactly, or how it works. Nobody will spend millions on a study for tribulus, because you can’t patent it like a drug, so there’s no funding for the study. If tribulus demethylated the methylated androgen receptors, I don’t think we’d know that based on the existing studies.

    I’m not really concerned with the actual scientific causes of PFS, or trying to micro-target one hormone or whatever. I’m only concerned with what works, in the safest and fastest way.

    If I thought that PFS was caused by gremlins who live on the moon, and that the CDsnuts protocol will scare off the moon gremlins, it wouldn’t matter. As long as you’re doing the steps to recover, it doesn’t matter if the person’s understanding of PFS or the cure is wrong.

    If we learn the true cause and you have something that laser targets that true cause, you could fix it fast. But there could be a constellation of things going on, maybe more than methylated receptors, maybe some factor science has never explored. Until there’s an accepted disease model, we don’t know the true cause and we just try to do the best we can.

    My guess is that there’s a complex web of things going on with PFS, and it involves androgen receptors in the brain, in some way. And I also believe that tribulus (Bulgarian aerial portions) helps that in some way.

    Apr1989 fully recovered with tribulus, and others made great progress, and the use of tribulus (at some level,) is a common thread among many recoveries, including CDsnuts and the recoveries from this board. I’m not sure if it’s a magic bullet, but it could be an under-used tool.

    I’ve noticed major libido and daytime erection gains on a low dose of tribulus, even as I taper off of it. It could be demethylating receptors, replacing methalyated ones with demethylated ones, chasing away moon gremlins, it’s all good.

    Tone can sometimes come across weird in text and I haven’t been getting good sleep, so I apologize if any of this came across as confrontational and not conversational. Thanks for taking the time out to comment, and I agree that PH is full of madness. I truly don’t know what causes PFS, just trying something that seems to be helping.

    I would not let a doctor take biopsies of my brain to test for the methylation level of my androgen receptors, and I don’t think you’d want me to either. I don’t think there’s any other way for them to test it.

    It seems like butyrates are from gut bacteria and eating fiber? I get lots of fiber and still have PFS, so I don’t know if that’s the key. Are there any specific probiotics or prebiotics you’d recommend, and did you make progress with them? I’m always willing to try safe non-pharma solutions
    Trib on its own is not going to cure pfs. Imagine how easy things would be if that was the case?

    He may believe that the trib cured him, but if he recovered by just using that, he was going to recover on his own most likely anyway. He could have probably just waited it out and it would have worked itself out, like the majority of guys who take fin with no problems.

    Also, I want to remind you guys that we typically keep talk to protocol specific things simply for the new guys ease of understanding how to get going on the protocol. You know how it is in the beginning.....scared, anxious, depressed, can't think straight.

    The other thing is not to wander too far from what is outlined. It's very easy to do, but will rarely give you the results you want.
    Last edited by Cdsnuts; 03-25-2021 at 12:27 PM.
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  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cdsnuts View Post
    Trib on its own is not going to cure pfs. Imagine how easy things would be if that was the case?

    He may believe that the trib cured him, but if he recovered by just using that, he was going to recover on his own most likely anyway. He could have probably just waited it out and it would have worked itself out, like the majority of guys who take fin with no problems.

    Also, I want to remind you guys that we typically keep talk to protocol specific things simply for the new guys ease of understanding how to get going on the protocol. You know how it is in the beginning.....scared, anxious, depressed, can't think straight.

    The other thing is not to wander too far from what is outlined. It's very easy to do, but will rarely give you the results you want.
    Yeah, I’m not sure whether or not trib by itself (even following a special regimen of tapering and breaks,) could cure PFS. The rub is that it’s a special kind of tribulus that isn’t widely available, but the concept of a moonshot one-herb cure seems too good to be true.

    According to his timeline, he had full-blown PFS for at least 7 or 8 months with no improvement (assuming he made his account as soon as he stopped taking finasteride and not some months later,) and then improved and fully recovered over about 3 or 4 months, during his experiment with trib. He said the symptoms improved or worsened based on whether he too little, too much, or didn’t taper up or down properly. However, that’s not massively far off (normal recovery is within 2 - 4 weeks, or up to 1 - 6 months,) and it still could have been a natural recovery, or a fluke recovery. I did have a huge upswing that started last week - though it’s likely coincidental. Also, I’m finally getting back in the gym as of yesterday, so that will be a huge boost.

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    Maybe a bit of a derail here, sorry for that. But what irks me sometimes when people bring up “PFS recoveries” is that it is such a vague thing to say. I don’t know this case but it sounds like he had sexual issues, which he alleviated by taking large doses of a quality aphrodisiac. Maybe that isn’t that far fetched?

    People start arguing when bringing up solutions and protocols because everyone seems to have varying interpretations of what PFS is based on personal symptoms. To me the thought of mass dosing tribulus will onviously not appeal since my issues are mental. And then you have CD who had every symptom in the book and was going through hell on a yearly basis. So I can’t blame CD or his peers when he is condescending when it comes to these ‘bite sized protocols’, while he figured out an all encompassing and multifaceted way of going forward.

    All these protocols are nice to know, and I appreciate you bringing it up and experimenting with it. But people need to look at these things with adjusted expectations. At the same time I wish others would take caution when declaring solutions when it just doesn’t apply to everyone.

    Sorry for the psuedo rant here, and it’s not personal at all. It’s just something that has bothered me for a while. I remember endlessly roaming PH back in the days reading of all kinds of protocols that where supposed to fix my issues when in the end my issues where maybe not even relevant.

    ‘X fixed his PFS with Y’ is just a bit if a pet peeve for me as everyone has his own mental image of what PFS means to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
    Maybe a bit of a derail here, sorry for that. But what irks me sometimes when people bring up “PFS recoveries” is that it is such a vague thing to say. I don’t know this case but it sounds like he had sexual issues, which he alleviated by taking large doses of a quality aphrodisiac. Maybe that isn’t that far fetched?

    People start arguing when bringing up solutions and protocols because everyone seems to have varying interpretations of what PFS is based on personal symptoms. To me the thought of mass dosing tribulus will onviously not appeal since my issues are mental. And then you have CD who had every symptom in the book and was going through hell on a yearly basis. So I can’t blame CD or his peers when he is condescending when it comes to these ‘bite sized protocols’, while he figured out an all encompassing and multifaceted way of going forward.

    All these protocols are nice to know, and I appreciate you bringing it up and experimenting with it. But people need to look at these things with adjusted expectations. At the same time I wish others would take caution when declaring solutions when it just doesn’t apply to everyone.

    Sorry for the psuedo rant here, and it’s not personal at all. It’s just something that has bothered me for a while. I remember endlessly roaming PH back in the days reading of all kinds of protocols that where supposed to fix my issues when in the end my issues where maybe not even relevant.

    ‘X fixed his PFS with Y’ is just a bit if a pet peeve for me as everyone has his own mental image of what PFS means to them.
    I didn’t find CD to be condescending in his response to my post; I’ve known him on this board for two years, and he’s always been nice to me. Sometimes he’s direct, but I know him well enough that I did not interpret what he said as being condescending or slapping me down or anything like that.

    I don’t want to repeat everything I already said, but from where I’m sitting, it felt like words were being put into my mouth. I never said that mass tribulus doses were “the new cure for PFS,” or that anyone should do anything other than the protocol. If you need anything clarified you can send me a DM. If you end up not follwing my thread and/or deciding to avoid me, that’s completely alright and my feelings won’t be hurt. Wishing you peace and a speedy recovery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LetsGo View Post
    I didn’t find CD to be condescending in his response to my post; I’ve known him on this board for two years, and he’s always been nice to me. Sometimes he’s direct, but I know him well enough that I did not interpret what he said as being condescending or slapping me down or anything like that.

    I don’t want to repeat everything I already said, but from where I’m sitting, it felt like words were being put into my mouth. I never said that mass tribulus doses were “the new cure for PFS,” or that anyone should do anything other than the protocol. If you need anything clarified you can send me a DM. If you end up not follwing my thread and/or deciding to avoid me, that’s completely alright and my feelings won’t be hurt. Wishing you peace and a speedy recovery.
    If I came across as condescending, my apologies. That is certainly never my intention. But I think you hit the nail right on the head. I took no offense to anything you said. I simply try and gently remind everyone on this board that these stories of recoveries where someone uses one thing or the other is typically someone who is going to recover naturally anyway.

    I can tell you at my worst if all I did was take trib everyday, I'd still be in the same spot I was ten years ago. Nothing more, nothing less.

    I find your log to be very thorough and helpful to others, so keep it up!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cdsnuts View Post
    If I came across as condescending, my apologies. That is certainly never my intention. But I think you hit the nail right on the head. I took no offense to anything you said. I simply try and gently remind everyone on this board that these stories of recoveries where someone uses one thing or the other is typically someone who is going to recover naturally anyway.

    I can tell you at my worst if all I did was take trib everyday, I'd still be in the same spot I was ten years ago. Nothing more, nothing less.

    I find your log to be very thorough and helpful to others, so keep it up!
    No worries, you weren’t condescending And yeah, I think that the combination of all the different elements of the protocol is the best thing for progress and recovery.

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    Maybe condescending wasn’t the word I was looking for lol, apprehensive seems more suitable.

    Also again, my post has nothing to do with you. It’s something I just felt like I had to get of my chest but didn’t feel like making a thread about it. In retrospect it did come of a bit strong and I probably should not have dumped this turd in your personal log, my apologies hehe

    It’s just weird sometimes when I read things like some dude curing his PFS when it seems very unlikely that trib will rid me of panic attacks and insomnia. Just because my PFS isn’t his PFS.

    My vemoheb arrived today, curious to test it out vs my old generic trib in my rotation soon.
    Last edited by Mojo; 03-30-2021 at 09:55 PM.

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