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  1. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeP26 View Post
    Naw man. Trust me, the medical field has tried every which way for decades to fix primary hypogonadism and have done numerous studies on it. Men who blast roids for lengthy periods of time and suppress their testes, that later get primary hypogonadism, do not recover from it. There's nothing that can be done except TRT. That's why this forum isn't a fan of it and why standalone TRT should never be used in PFS. You run the risk of more unnecessary damage.
    Based on your TRT statement above, that would mean that the thousands of people on TRT would be experiencing symptoms of low progesterone and/or allo. How do you explain the no change in progesterone levels in the thousands upon thousands of TRT blood labs folks run?

    Also, I heard you have a preference towards R-Andor cream. Do you mind sharing why over UH and which product youíre using? Havenít seen a cream option?

  2. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeP26 View Post
    Naw man. Trust me, the medical field has tried every which way for decades to fix primary hypogonadism and have done numerous studies on it. Men who blast roids for lengthy periods of time and suppress their testes, that later get primary hypogonadism, do not recover from it. There's nothing that can be done except TRT. That's why this forum isn't a fan of it and why standalone TRT should never be used in PFS. You run the risk of more unnecessary damage.
    Prohormones wonít cause hypogonadism the way roids would, right? Theyíve been crucial in my recovery, and IMO necessary, but I wonder about later on in life.

    To all the guys on the forum, please donít crucify me, itís just a question lol

  3. #433
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 JoeP26's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brooks View Post
    Based on your TRT statement above, that would mean that the thousands of people on TRT would be experiencing symptoms of low progesterone and/or allo. How do you explain the no change in progesterone levels in the thousands upon thousands of TRT blood labs folks run?

    Also, I heard you have a preference towards R-Andor cream. Do you mind sharing why over UH and which product youíre using? Havenít seen a cream option?
    Do you have evidence their progesterone levels are unchanged? As everything I've seen and read states the opposite. TRT suppresses the testes, which produces large amounts of testosterone and a modest amount of progesterone. We have a guy in our WhatsApp group who was put on TRT for PFS and his progesterone levels plummeted, predictably, so I have seen this firsthand.

    R-Andro is pure Androsterone. Androsterone is similar to Allopregnanolone in that it is a neurosteroid that positively modulates GABAA receptors and potentiates GABA's action on GABAA. It is also a weak androgen with about 10th the strength on androgen receptors as Testosterone and 100th the strength as DHT. But it also converts eventually into DHT through a back door pathway utilizing the 17 alpha and 3 alpha HSD enzymes. Ultra Hard and Andro Hard are a blend of Androsterone and EpiAndrosteron. EpiAndrosterone is the polar opposite cousin to Androsterone. It antagonizes and blocks GABAA receptors, which is a big mistake in PFS since GABAA receptors have already been severely deprived of agonistic actions due to lack of neurosteroids, like Allopregnanolone. You would just cause further upregulation.
    Last edited by JoeP26; 07-18-2021 at 10:45 PM.

  4. #434
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 JoeP26's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turnover25 View Post
    Prohormones wonít cause hypogonadism the way roids would, right? Theyíve been crucial in my recovery, and IMO necessary, but I wonder about later on in life.

    To all the guys on the forum, please donít crucify me, itís just a question lol
    Correct. They are only minimally suppressive while you use them and then your T levels go right back up after you're done. You just want to be sure that your testosterone and estradiol levels are sufficient before running them because they are very anti-estrogenic. If you run them with low T, you will crush your estrogens and cause a whole other issue on top of PFS. If your T and E2 are fine, there's absolutely nothing to worry about.

  5. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeP26 View Post
    Naw man. Trust me, the medical field has tried every which way for decades to fix primary hypogonadism and have done numerous studies on it. Men who blast roids for lengthy periods of time and suppress their testes, that later get primary hypogonadism, do not recover from it. There's nothing that can be done except TRT. That's why this forum isn't a fan of it and why standalone TRT should never be used in PFS. You run the risk of more unnecessary damage.
    Ah, okay. I personally never used TRT, and Iím not an expert on it.

    Modern medicine canít cure PFS, but the protocol can, so I figured it would be worth attempting to cure post steroid dysfunction with the protocol as well. Lots of guys with PFS had massively shrunken balls, which is supposedly permanent, yet they recovered from that in the protocol.

    I would still urge someone in that situation to at least try the protocol rather than just give up. If there are a bunch of guys in that situation who tried the PFS protocol for years and made no progress, then that really sucks. I have no idea if they have or havenít tried, though. I remember CD saying that if you used TRT for awhile it would take years longer to recover, but I have no idea whether he or you is right about whether itís reversible.

    I do agree that PFS guys should avoid TRT.

  6. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeP26 View Post
    Do you have evidence their progesterone levels are unchanged? As everything I've seen and read states the opposite. TRT suppresses the testes, which produces large amounts of testosterone and a modest amount of progesterone. We have a guy in our WhatsApp group who was put on TRT for PFS and his progesterone levels plummeted, predictably, so I have seen this firsthand.

    R-Andro is pure Androsterone. Androsterone is similar to Allopregnanolone in that it is a neurosteroid that positively modulates GABAA receptors and potentiates GABA's action on GABAA. It is also a weak androgen with about 10th the strength on androgen receptors as Testosterone and 100th the strength as DHT. But it also converts eventually into DHT through a back door pathway utilizing the 17 alpha and 3 alpha HSD enzymes. Ultra Hard and Andro Hard are a blend of Androsterone and EpiAndrosteron. EpiAndrosterone is the polar opposite cousin to Androsterone. It antagonizes and blocks GABAA receptors, which is a big mistake in PFS since GABAA receptors have already been severely deprived of agonistic actions due to lack of neurosteroids, like Allopregnanolone. You would just cause further upregulation.
    Yeah, the evidence Iíve seen is on this TRT Facebook group Iím a member of ran by medical professionals with 9k members. This exact scenario and question has come up a few times and the labs and symptoms just donít show it to be true. My dad is on TRT and his progesterone is fine. Iím not sure whatís going on with the WhatsApp guy. I mean, itíd be fair to say that plummeting ones progesterone or allo would kill the point of TRT and the hundred million dollar industry that it is haha.

    Appreciate the explanation on R-Andro. Iíve only done UH with no negatives other than some insomnia so it sounds like I might need to try R-Andro for my next cycle. Is this the cream everyone is talking about: https://www.ironmaglabs.com/product/...r-andro-cream/

  7. #437
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 JoeP26's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brooks View Post
    Yeah, the evidence Iíve seen is on this TRT Facebook group Iím a member of ran by medical professionals with 9k members. This exact scenario and question has come up a few times and the labs and symptoms just donít show it to be true. My dad is on TRT and his progesterone is fine. Iím not sure whatís going on with the WhatsApp guy. I mean, itíd be fair to say that plummeting ones progesterone or allo would kill the point of TRT and the hundred million dollar industry that it is haha.

    Appreciate the explanation on R-Andro. Iíve only done UH with no negatives other than some insomnia so it sounds like I might need to try R-Andro for my next cycle. Is this the cream everyone is talking about: https://www.ironmaglabs.com/product/...r-andro-cream/
    I'm wondering if they aren't just being smart and using a small amount of HCG with their TRT, which is quite common in the body building world to prevent testicular atrophy. If they are, then that would be why their progesterone is fine. Also, keep in mind that male progesterone reference ranges are highly inaccurate and unreliable, as labs never put emphasis or care on them because of the stigma that progesterone is a "female only hormone." They typically measure .2ng/mL or less to undetectable as "normal" and that's just a joke. Men can go all the way up to 1ng/mL safely but many labs just don't do the smart thing and revise it. Too many variables. I just go where the science leads me. The suppression of Allo on TRT btw is what causes "roid rage." Ask yourself if men with roid rage are calm, collected, rational, and sleep well. Now ask yourself if women on their period (when their progesterone levels plummet) are calm, collected, rational, and sleep well. Same problem. Different causes.

    Sure thing. Also, yes that's the cream but @Cdsnuts wants us to get it at the link below and use his promo code: cdsnuts

    Super R Andro Topical Cream by Iron Mag Labs (DHT) - GymNTonic.com
    Last edited by JoeP26; 07-18-2021 at 11:20 PM.

  8. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeP26 View Post
    I'm wondering if they aren't just being smart and using a small amount of HCG with their TRT, which is quite common in the body building world to prevent testicular atrophy. If they are, then that would be why their progesterone is fine. Also, keep in mind that male progesterone reference ranges are highly inaccurate and unreliable, as labs never put emphasis or care on them because of the stigma that progesterone is a "female only hormone." They typically measure .2ng/mL or less to undetectable as "normal" and that's just a joke. Men can go all the way up to 1ng/mL safely but many labs just don't do the smart thing and revise it. Too many variables. I just go where the science leads me. The suppression of Allo on TRT btw is what causes "roid rage." Ask yourself if men with roid rage are calm, collected, rational, and sleep well. Now ask yourself if women on their period (when their progesterone levels plummet) are calm, collected, rational, and sleep well. Same problem. Different causes.

    Sure thing. Also, yes that's the cream but @Cdsnuts wants us to get it at the link below and use his promo code: cdsnuts

    Super R Andro Topical Cream by Iron Mag Labs (DHT) - GymNTonic.com
    Some are on HCG but most aren't. Yes, most docs are idiots relying on modern-day ranges, fortunately these guys know their shit and are looking at male optimization levels. Plummeting progesterone would cause serious alarm, plus nasty symptoms.

    Ah, somehow missed this link, thank you! Stoked to try this later next month!

  9. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeP26 View Post
    Perhaps. But the problem in PFS of low IGF-1 and GH is the GABAA positive modulating neurosteroids in the brain, like Androsterone and Allopregnanolone. They stimulate GAD (short for Glutamic Acid Decarboxylase) which is a reducing agent that converts Glutamate (an excitatory neurotransmitter) into GABA (a sedative neurotransmitter). GABA was found in a study to potently stimulate GH secretion from the pituitary when administered to a control group. On average, it raised GH levels by ~400%. And we know in PFS that individuals have low to undetectable levels of Allopregnanolone in CSF. This in turn would cause low GABA levels as well then low GH and low IGF-1, since GH stimulates IGF-1 production in the liver. This pattern is actually used by some doctors in treating PFS nowadays. And even generalized TBI.

    I should also add that several in this forum and the WhatsApp group had neurotransmitters tested, including myself, through ZRT. All of us had severely low GABA.
    Would you say that low allopregnanolone is a key biomarker for PFS?

  10. #440
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 JoeP26's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MungYarlon View Post
    Would you say that low allopregnanolone is a key biomarker for PFS?
    That and low Androsterone, low GABA, low GH, low IGF-1, high folate, low homocysteine, low acetylcholine, irregular CBC, irregular lipid levels, low vitamin D, very high urine hormone levels with low-normal levels at blood, low dopamine, low norepinephrine, low epinephrine, low PEA, low L-phenylalanine, and low glutamate. Those are the patterns we constantly see.

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