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  1. #51
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 1 (100%) Freepressright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by longBallLima View Post
    I'm curious. The right to bear arms and such is to be able to overthrow a tyrannic government. McVeigh thought exactly that of his government and tried to overthrow it with his crazy methods. How do you constitution worshipers do not defend his right to do exactly what he did?

    To be clear, I don't and I think he's insane. Partly because he didn't seem to understand that the constitution as it was written as an intelligent document for that context. IMO, that's no longer the case.
    You said it yourself, context.

    It is about a citizenry, as a collective, exhausting all other options at redressing the grievances before someone would ever do something that involved violence. No right-thinking individual condones what McVeigh did. That's insanity. Just because we, as free Americans, cherish the document that spells out our freedoms and protects us from a government run amok doesn't mean we all want to resort to violent means when we don't get our own way.

    As a freedom-loving American, I find any such implication to be highly derogatory and offensive.

    That same document you make light of could be the one keeping your ass from being thrown in jail for a crime you didn't commit, or from something much worse.

  2. #52
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 markam's Avatar
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    Most police aren't even armed in the U.K.

    Much less gun crime, also.

  3. #53
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 1 (100%) Freepressright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markam View Post
    X2
    You live in Britain, right? Which has some of the strictest gun control laws in the developed world.

    Given that one of the most vocal advocates for gun control in the aftermath of Sandy Hook has been a British citizen – Piers Morgan – who has used his platform on CNN to attack the second amendment, the contrast is illuminating.

    Despite the fact that it is virtually impossible for an average citizen to obtain a gun through legal channels in Britain, the rate of violent crime in the UK is higher per capita than the US and the highest in the world amongst “rich” countries aside from Australia, which also instituted a draconian gun ban in the 1990′s.

    Violent crime worse in Britain than in US | Mail Online

    Preventing law-abiding people from owning guns clearly has no impact on violent crime, and if anything causes it to rise because the criminals know their victims will not be able to defend themselves.

    In addition, you are more than twice as likely to be a victim of knife crime in the UK than you are a victim of gun crime in the United States, but there is no media debate about banning kitchen knives.

    Chad Perrin: SOB Statistics 101: US Gun Crime vs. UK Knife Crime

    Despite virtually all handguns being outlawed in 1996 following the Dunblane school massacre in Scotland, with law-abiding people people rushing to turn in their firearms, over the next decade gun crime in the UK more than doubled. This proves that while law-abiding citizens willingly disarmed themselves, criminals were unfazed by the new laws and continued to use guns illegally. Therefore gun control only disarms innocent people since criminals do not follow the law.

    Firearms offences more than double since Dunblane - Telegraph

    As the Wall Street Journal recently noted, “Strict gun laws in Great Britain and Australia haven’t made their people noticeably safer, nor have they prevented massacres.”

    Joyce Lee Malcolm: Two Cautionary Tales of Gun Control - WSJ.com

    In summary, despite a widespread ban on gun ownership in the United Kingdom, it is the most dangerous place to live in terms of violent crime in the entire western world.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freepressright View Post
    You said it yourself, context.

    It is about a citizenry, as a collective, exhausting all other options at redressing the grievances before someone would ever do something that involved violence. No right-thinking individual condones what McVeigh did. That's insanity. Just because we, as free Americans, cherish the document that spells out our freedoms and protects us from a government run amok doesn't mean we all want to resort to violent means when we don't get our own way.

    As a freedom-loving American, I find any such implication to be highly derogatory and offensive.

    That same document you make light of could be the one keeping your ass from being thrown in jail for a crime you didn't commit, or from something much worse.


    Many other countries have constitutions that keep my ass from jail without a crime and doesn't have the measures to protect the citizens from the empire. They are not mutually exclusive. And as far as exhausting all options, I don't get why the need for guns before the options are exhausted then. The guns are protected in the constitution to commit violence against the government, is that not the case? Plus the notion that a well armed militia will fight the biggest war machine ever known to man is hopeful at best.

    Sorry If you are insulted, that was not my intention. I believe my POV was stated in a somewhat respectful manner and apologize if that wasn't the case. I do believe though, that as a freedom loving american, you would be able to hear/read other POV's without jumping to feeling your nationality being attacked.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freepressright View Post
    You live in Britain, right? Which has some of the strictest gun control laws in the developed world.

    Given that one of the most vocal advocates for gun control in the aftermath of Sandy Hook has been a British citizen – Piers Morgan – who has used his platform on CNN to attack the second amendment, the contrast is illuminating.

    Despite the fact that it is virtually impossible for an average citizen to obtain a gun through legal channels in Britain, the rate of violent crime in the UK is higher per capita than the US and the highest in the world amongst “rich” countries aside from Australia, which also instituted a draconian gun ban in the 1990′s.

    Violent crime worse in Britain than in US | Mail Online

    Preventing law-abiding people from owning guns clearly has no impact on violent crime, and if anything causes it to rise because the criminals know their victims will not be able to defend themselves.

    In addition, you are more than twice as likely to be a victim of knife crime in the UK than you are a victim of gun crime in the United States, but there is no media debate about banning kitchen knives.

    Chad Perrin: SOB Statistics 101: US Gun Crime vs. UK Knife Crime

    Despite virtually all handguns being outlawed in 1996 following the Dunblane school massacre in Scotland, with law-abiding people people rushing to turn in their firearms, over the next decade gun crime in the UK more than doubled. This proves that while law-abiding citizens willingly disarmed themselves, criminals were unfazed by the new laws and continued to use guns illegally. Therefore gun control only disarms innocent people since criminals do not follow the law.

    Firearms offences more than double since Dunblane - Telegraph

    As the Wall Street Journal recently noted, “Strict gun laws in Great Britain and Australia haven’t made their people noticeably safer, nor have they prevented massacres.”

    Joyce Lee Malcolm: Two Cautionary Tales of Gun Control - WSJ.com

    In summary, despite a widespread ban on gun ownership in the United Kingdom, it is the most dangerous place to live in terms of violent crime in the entire western world.

    Homicide rate in the UK: 1.2
    Homicide rate in the US: 4.8


    I'll take robbery and hooliganism over child murder any day.

  6. #56
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 1 (100%) Freepressright's Avatar
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    That's great, but not all of those homicides were caused by firearms.

  7. #57
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 1 (100%) Freepressright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by longBallLima View Post
    Many other countries have constitutions that keep my ass from jail without a crime and doesn't have the measures to protect the citizens from the empire. They are not mutually exclusive. And as far as exhausting all options, I don't get why the need for guns before the options are exhausted then. The guns are protected in the constitution to commit violence against the government, is that not the case? Plus the notion that a well armed militia will fight the biggest war machine ever known to man is hopeful at best.
    You would have to presume that the military, by and large, would stand with the government or stand with the people. Every service member I know, when asked, has said they would refuse rogue kill orders on an otherwise law-abiding citizenry.

    The founding fathers knew that tyranny was real. They escape the wrath of it. They wanted to give the free people a means, in several fashions, to fix, alter or abolish a government destructive of its ends. I see nothing wrong with that.

    History has taught us that mass disarming of civilian populations has left hundreds of millions dead at the hands of rogue governments. Although I'm not saying it is going to happen, I'd never dismiss the idea. Just look at how the fabric of the United States and western world as a whole continues to deteriorate each day. The poor get poorer, the rich get richer and the cheerleaders who pretend they're for the little guy throw him under the bus every time.

    And for the record, you insulted me when you called me a "constitution worshiper." I am a free American, and I get my freedom from the Constitution. There isn't anything more or any less to it.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freepressright View Post
    That's great, but not all of those homicides were caused by firearms.
    Oh, I know, just 66.9% of 'em.

    My argument is that violent crime has a somewhat broad definition and doesn't necessarily describe how violent instruments (guns, blades or whatever else one uses to kill) affect society.

    The fact that the UK has a higher rate of violent crimes doesn't necessarily translate in the UK is more negatively affected by its gun laws than the US.

  9. #59
    Super Moderator Feedback Score 2 (100%) h2s's Avatar
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    I am going to say my peace and then back out of this thread for all purposes but moderation:

    1. A top 10 cause of death in a country, especially one US sized, is a big fucking deal. Whether than is #1 on the list or #2 on the list. Should the government legalize heroin since it accounts for such a small rate of death when looking at the country as a whole? Fuck that isn't even a proper example, because the drug effects the user, in this case, normal citizens lose their life to someone practicing their bullshit fucking "right" to bear a weapon designed to kill people.

    2. Fuck your rights. I am not talking directly to users here, but how many fucking gun slinging second amendment singing, republican party fanatics are the same people begging for the rights of a person to own a fucking tool of death, but are the same people who are appauled that a man and another man who are in love could become married, or that a woman can choose what to do with her own fucking body when pregnant. Fuck I hate conservatives in this country.

    3. Guns kill. There is no other purpose for them, they fucking kill. If they don't kill, they are not functioning. Owning a hand gun to protect yourself, and owning a gun capable of wiping out a group of students in a room in a single clip, in mere minutes, are two completely different things.

    4. This country needs to stop sucking the fore-father's dicks. Do you think these guys knew what an AR-15 was when they wrote the second amendment? The constitution, in literal sense, does not define the current age. Rather this country interprets the laws as they see fit through legislation (another great process of this country, eyeroll).


    There I am done. Inb4 someone calls me anti-american, I really dont care. This is why I stay out of these discussions.

  10. #60
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 0
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freepressright View Post
    You would have to presume that the military, by and large, would stand with the government or stand with the people. Every service member I know, when asked, has said they would refuse rogue kill orders on an otherwise law-abiding citizenry.

    The founding fathers knew that tyranny was real. They escape the wrath of it. They wanted to give the free people a means, in several fashions, to fix, alter or abolish a government destructive of its ends. I see nothing wrong with that.

    History has taught us that mass disarming of civilian populations has left hundreds of millions dead at the hands of rogue governments. Although I'm not saying it is going to happen, I'd never dismiss the idea. Just look at how the fabric of the United States and western world as a whole continues to deteriorate each day. The poor get poorer, the rich get richer and the cheerleaders who pretend they're for the little guy throw him under the bus every time.

    And for the record, you insulted me when you called me a "constitution worshiper." I am a free American, and I get my freedom from the Constitution. There isn't anything more or any less to it.
    well, I apologize for the term if it insulted you. Although I could have used different words, it is my opinion that the average american seem to hold its original constitution way more sacred than other folks, granted I don't know people from every single country in the world, obviously.

    When the founding fathers, who are also held as deity here, wrote the constitution, tyranny was a much bigger threat and armed insurgence against said government was much more realistic.

    That the US military won't blindly follow orders has been proved wrong time and time again.

    And history has shown different examples. Sometimes countries have been disarmed and bad things happened, other times, not. Something tells me it is not the disarmament itself, but the nature of the government that executed it.

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