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  1. #11
    Established Member Feedback Score 1 (100%) Rodja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markam View Post
    But if you don't (shock, horror) use a Serm?
    What about it?
    M. Ed. Ex Phys

  2. #12
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 BoneDaddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    SHBG doesn't only free up test; it also increases the amount of E2 released, which is already going to be elevated from the SERM. You'd need to take an AI to deal with the further increase in E2. Also, increasing SHBG is partially how a SERM works and modulating it may actually be counter productive to the end goal.
    Excellent point. I knew modulating SHBG also affected E2, but I wasn't aware of the Serm aspect of it. Thanks.

  3. #13
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 markam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    What about it?
    Need to do some more research

  4. #14
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 0 Jelisej's Avatar
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    To simplify things- SERM cheats brain into thinking that there is not enough estrogens, so it raises testosterone to get more estrogens (via aromatisation). So advantage of SERM over AI as PCT is that it works much faster, also as Rodja said SERMS raise SHBG a bit which helps recovery process as after any serious cycle SHBG will be virtualy reduced to zero.
    IMO best option is SERM+ little bit of AI- lot of people are doing mistake and overdose SERMS, as sometime with too high dose you get opposite effect.
    Now, fact is that raising testosterone with SERM or AI dont yield same benefits as with natural or even exogenous test, and also TT:E and TT:SHBG (levels of free test.) ratio is important- and also (IMO) testosterone effect on wellbeing is bit overated.
    Last edited by Jelisej; 02-12-2013 at 09:43 AM.

  5. #15
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 0
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jelisej View Post
    To simplify things- SERM cheats brain into thinking that there is not enough estrogens, so it raises testosterone to get more estrogens (via aromatisation). So advantage of SERM over AI as PCT is that it works much faster, also as Rodja said SERMS raise SHBG a bit which helps recovery process as after any serious cycle SHBG will be virtualy reduced to zero.
    IMO best option is SERM+ little bit of AI- lot of people are doing mistake and overdose SERMS, as sometime with too high dose you get opposite effect.
    Now, fact is that raising testosterone with SERM or AI dont yield same benefits as with natural or even exogenous test, and also TT:E and TT:SHBG ratio is important- and also (IMO) testosterone effect on wellbeing is bit overrated.


    now, what's a little bit when it comes to an AI on pct?

    cheers!

  6. #16
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 0 Jelisej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by longBallLima View Post
    now, what's a little bit when it comes to an AI on pct?

    cheers!
    Thats a good question. Depends from person to person, I would say as a rough guide somewhere between 37.5 -75 g of aromasin/exemestane per week, 37.5 would be sufficient for majority of healthy guys 9asuming that their E2 was under control during cycle), and 75 for guys with a lot of aromatisation- but again, this is my rough estimation based on not insufficient evidence, to be honest.
    Last edited by Jelisej; 02-11-2013 at 02:27 PM.

  7. #17
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 0
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jelisej View Post
    Thats a good question. Depends from person to person, I would say as a rough guide somewhere between 37.5 -75 g of aromasin/exemestane per week, 37.5 would be sufficient for majority of healthy guys 9asuming that their E2 was under control during cycle), and 75 for guys with a lot of aromatisation- but again, this is my rough estimation based on not insufficient evidence, to be honest.
    gotcha, thanks!

  8. #18
    Established Member Feedback Score 2 (100%) milehighguy's Avatar
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    Interesting....I know my SHBG came back elevated just last week. It has been months since I stopped the use of a SERM but have to think it played a role in the elevated number.

    Similar to Freepress it has tanked my sex drive which is never fun. Did not use SA this time which was a mistake. I usually feel great on SA after a few days...

  9. #19
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 markam's Avatar
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    To those that have skim read the first post, here is the most relevant part:

    ------
    This is an interesting question since it has been observed by many SERM users that the subjective physical response one gets from a SERM often does not correlate with the measured substantial increase in circulating testosterone. In other words, you don’t feel the same when your blood testosterone is doubled by taking a SERM as compared to when it is doubled by a testosterone injection or testosterone gel. Why is that?

    There are some theories. Number one, SERMs may act as estrogen antagonists in the brain and it is well known that many of the effects of testosterone upon libido and mood are due to its local conversion to DHT as well as estrogen (estradiol) in the CNS. Therefore blocking the effects of estrogen upon key levels of the brain may blunt the psychological response one would expect from testosterone.

    SERMs also are known to act as estrogen agonists (active estrogens) in the liver. This can have a couple of relevant effects. First of all, estrogens strongly promote the production of sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG). This protein circulates in your blood and irreversibly binds to sex hormones such as testosterone, rendering them inactive. So with a SERM you may have high total testosterone levels but actual bioactive testosterone may not be so high.

    Another consequence of SERM estrogen agonist action in the liver is suppression of IGF-1 production. IGF-1 is a systemic hormone responsible for whole body anabolism and it is produced in the liver under the positive influence of growth hormone, as well as other hormones such as insulin, thyroid hormone, and androgens. Estrogens on the other hand suppress IGF-1 production in the liver. In a recent study* it was directly demonstrated that administration of either tamoxifen or raloxifene to males increased LH and testosterone levels (as expected). However they also significantly reduced circulating IGF-1 production. Given the fact that it is well demonstrated that exogenous administration of testosterone increases IGF-1 levels in the blood you begin to see that this may be a big part of the SERM testosterone mystery. Systemic IGF-1 levels may not do much for contractile muscle tissue growth but they can lead to overall body composition changes and increases in bodyweight. The difference between the suppressed IGF-1 state (compared to control) of the SERM user to the heightened IGF-1 state (compared to control) of the exogenous testosterone user may indeed be quite profound.

    ------
    Worrying?

  10. #20
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 0 Jelisej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milehighguy View Post
    Interesting....I know my SHBG came back elevated just last week. It has been months since I stopped the use of a SERM but have to think it played a role in the elevated number.

    Similar to Freepress it has tanked my sex drive which is never fun. Did not use SA this time which was a mistake. I usually feel great on SA after a few days...
    If it has been over 3 months that you used SERMS than SHBG would be down by now- its probably mixture of few things, 1. liver is responsible for clearing up SHBG 2. Your testosterone levels are below what it should be- you may be low on other hormones that oppose SHBG (DHT, GH,) 3. If you dont get no insulin spikes that may contribute to problem (insulin lowers SHBG a lot- for example, people with diabetes whose insulin is high have very low SHBG which is one of reasons why their TT is low).

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