Turnover 25's road to kick PFS in the ass

[Turnover25]

What's up boys.

It's about that time that I make a new thread for myself. I started fin (for the second time) back in May, got horrible sides, got better than I was before for about a week and a half, then crashed while sitting in finance class. That was the moment all of my fears came to life, I was scared my sides would come back, then all of the sudden I remember thinking "Wow, I can't believe how fucking low and depressed I feel right now" then BOOM! It was like a rush of hot liquid over my body. Anxiety, fear, panic, brain fog, you name it. It all came back, and here I am months later with the same symptoms.

My life has become somewhat livable again since that moment. I've managed to work my way through school through the panic attacks and brain fog, and found ways to occupy my time with riding my bike in the summer time and lifting weights and trying to eat healthy. I was doing a lot of the things on the protocol during the summer, I think they were probably of good use. I was also cheating on my diet and drinking my pain away more than I like to admit, so that undoubtedly has dragged me down. But, it's all good. Time to fix it.

I did a juice fast a month or 2 back, and honestly saw some results, but ended up fucking it up with bad diet. So, this Friday I am starting a 5 day water fast, then I am going to begin the protocol. I am in very good shape, but I still plan to follow the protocol to a T, and not skip the 3 weeks in between fasting, calisthenics, light lifting phase and then heavy lifting (Unless you guys think it's unneccesary if you are in good shape?)

My only concern is that I react harshly to nearly everything I've tried, which is cold showers, supplements, certain foods, etc. They make my head pound and my head pressure/brain fog becomes harsh. I'm assuming it's because my system is fucked up. Never had these problems before.

Anyways, I want to point out that even though I'm extremely fucked up (to the point of suicide many times), I have a lot of hope for me and for others. Due to my brain fog, it's been tough to keep up with a lot of details from other sufferers, but one that REALLY sticks out to me is English. He made it known that in order to truly heal, you need to quit mind-fucking yourself and realize that you are NOT suffering from a life-long illness, and the sooner that you control your anxiety and emotions, the sooner you can heal. I personally feel that this thing feeds off of anxiety and fear, which is why I respect CD for having included that in the protocol (dude knows what he is talking about).

Anyways, that's it guys. I'm severely fucked up, but you know what? I'm going to fucking KICK this things ass. It's going to suck, it's going to be a long journey, but I'm gonna fuckin kick this things ass. And I have all my friends here to help me. Also, I'm here to help you guys too. None of you are alone, as I am not either. Lets do it boys! I'll update you after the fast.

-Turnover

[Master Mal]

You're gonna be fine, buddy. Just put in the work and you'll start to feel better. It's going to be frustrating, but you'll get there before you know it.

[Turnover25]

Thanks dude. This is the first reply I've gotten that's been positive since all this began. It feels great to be in good company. I'll keep you updated.

[Blueblu2310]

Good luck I definitely wouldn't recommend CTsnuts protocol it almost killed me.

[xxaleksi]

What's up boys.

It's about that time that I make a new thread for myself. I started fin (for the second time) back in May, got horrible sides, got better than I was before for about a week and a half, then crashed while sitting in finance class. That was the moment all of my fears came to life, I was scared my sides would come back, then all of the sudden I remember thinking "Wow, I can't believe how fucking low and depressed I feel right now" then BOOM! It was like a rush of hot liquid over my body. Anxiety, fear, panic, brain fog, you name it. It all came back, and here I am months later with the same symptoms.

My life has become somewhat livable again since that moment. I've managed to work my way through school through the panic attacks and brain fog, and found ways to occupy my time with riding my bike in the summer time and lifting weights and trying to eat healthy. I was doing a lot of the things on the protocol during the summer, I think they were probably of good use. I was also cheating on my diet and drinking my pain away more than I like to admit, so that undoubtedly has dragged me down. But, it's all good. Time to fix it.

I did a juice fast a month or 2 back, and honestly saw some results, but ended up fucking it up with alcohol and diet. So, this Friday I am starting a 5 day water fast, then I am going to begin the protocol. I am in very good shape, but I still plan to follow the protocol to a T, and not skip the 3 weeks in between fasting, calisthenics, light lifting phase and then heavy lifting (Unless you guys think it's unneccesary if you are in good shape?)

My only concern is that I react harshly to nearly everything I've tried, which is cold showers, supplements, certain foods, etc. They make my head pound and my head pressure/brain fog becomes harsh. I'm assuming it's because my system is fucked up. Never had these problems before.

Anyways, I want to point out that even though I'm extremely fucked up (to the point of suicide many times), I have a lot of hope for me and for others. Due to my brain fog, it's been tough to keep up with a lot of details from other sufferers, but one that REALLY sticks out to me is English. He made it known that in order to truly heal, you need to quit mind-fucking yourself and realize that you are NOT suffering from a life-long illness, and the sooner that you control your anxiety and emotions, the sooner you can heal. I personally feel that this thing feeds off of anxiety and fear, which is why I respect CD for having included that in the protocol (dude knows what he is talking about).

Anyways, that's it guys. I'm severely fucked up, but you know what? I'm going to fucking KICK this things ass. It's going to suck, it's going to be a long journey, but I'm gonna fuckin kick this things ass. And I have all my friends here to help me. Also, I'm here to help you guys too. None of you are alone, as I am not either. Lets do it boys! I'll update you after the fast.

-Turnover

Hey man,

I had the same issue with cold showers making my head pressure worse. Exercising, mainly HIIT did this too. I just pushed through because I read that's what English did in the beginning. And now, neither of those cause me any issues.

Obviously listen to your body, and if you feel much worse then tone it back a bit. But I believe if you push through you'll be fine.

[Blueblu2310]

Push through and you'll end up in hospital

[Bankai9000]

Turnover25

Overall I feel pretty good, but got into a spiral of reading horrorstories again last days and my bloods are getting messed up. Couldn't sleep 2days ago well and yesterday was fkin my own mind again, staying up late taxing my body and getting no sleep now not due to PFS but cuz I stayed up till 4am like an idiot. Really wanna hit off another 5-7day waterfast too and then go at it full force. Have been drinking too much during summer, aswell as cheating on diet. Your story was as if I'd have written it myself, yesterday night quite some sides reappeared cuz I was thinking so much about them(didn't think that would actually happen again). It's easy to let these things spiral out of control and become quite systematic.

Blueryans posts actually made me chuckle af today, so this helped to start my day more positive XD

[Blueblu2310]

Another fake account ^^^^^ to promote this sociopaths regime

[Turnover25]

Please keep these comments off of my progress thread, I’m a regular dude just trying to heal myself. Your negativity is not welcome here. Thanks

[Blueblu2310]

Oh let's bring some rays of positivity perhaps that will cure you I'm telling you that following his regime will worsen you not make you better.

Cut carbs, go carnivore, fast on weekends, get plenty of sleep, lots of sunshine and limit Pmo that's all you need.

[Turnover25]

There’s no reason to be a douche to me on my own thread dude, I think more people would take you seriously if your demeanor wasn’t so hostile. If that’s what works for you, great, keep at it. I’m going to see what works for me. And yes, positivity has a large impact on my sides. So keep it off my thread please.

[Turnover25]

Hey dudes. I’m on day 2 of my water fast, I am wondering about a few things. I plan on sticking to the outline, so I will start rotating the herbs near December to make sure my exercise and diet are on point. I have a few questions regarding timelines.

Do I have to wait a few months to start HIIT? Or just when I start working out?

If I don’t start carb backloading until I start working out, does that mean avoiding carbs until then?

Last thing, I know it’s outlined that you should wait 3 weeks to start calisthenics after fasting, do you guys find it totally necessary to go as slow if you’ve already been in the gym for years and are in good shape? I’m not new to lifting, but I’ll put it on hold if necessary.

[Turnover25]

Anyone?

[Turnover25]

Day 5 of water fast. Plan on breaking fast tomorrow with some fresh fruit and refeeding. This fast has been great for my anxiety, there has been moments of pure bliss during this fast. Although, vision/brain fog got pretty intense, I didn’t care because I felt calm. I have a feeling the anxiety will come back when I reintroduce foods since my anxiety spikes when I eat. But all in all, pretty great experience.

I’ll keep you posted.

[DefRecover]

Hey man - it can be quiet on these personal threads - so just showing some love!

Good work on the fast. Keep trucking. I am about 4 months in and have improved a little. Still need to break the back of this but it takes time and discipline from all the accounts here.

Def

[DKnighten]

Day 5 of water fast. Plan on breaking fast tomorrow with some fresh fruit and refeeding. This fast has been great for my anxiety, there has been moments of pure bliss during this fast. Although, vision/brain fog got pretty intense, I didn’t care because I felt calm. I have a feeling the anxiety will come back when I reintroduce foods since my anxiety spikes when I eat. But all in all, pretty great experience.

I’ll keep you posted.

Good to hear. Were you at home resting during this time? Did you work or go to school?

[Turnover25]

Hey man - it can be quiet on these personal threads - so just showing some love!

Good work on the fast. Keep trucking. I am about 4 months in and have improved a little. Still need to break the back of this but it takes time and discipline from all the accounts here.

Def

Thanks man I appreciate it! I’m about 4 months also, we’ll get through it together bro. Keep in touch.

- - - Updated - - -


Good to hear. Were you at home resting during this time? Did you work or go to school?

Yeah man I rested a ton, I’m a student so I went to class and came back, I skipped one day because I had no energy. I’m also doing some pet sitting so that required a lot of back and forth. But I had plenty of energy to go about my day.

[Maxout777]

Keep on keeping on my man. This place isn’t as lively as it once was, and a lot of the old guard come on sporadically.

If you ever need anything not listed on here, shoot me a PM. I may not answer super timely, but I’ll do my best to get back with you. I’m trying to do better about giving back now that I’m way beyond the finish line.

[Turnover25]

Keep on keeping on my man. This place isn’t as lively as it once was, and a lot of the old guard come on sporadically.

If you ever need anything not listed on here, shoot me a PM. I may not answer super timely, but I’ll do my best to get back with you. I’m trying to do better about giving back now that I’m way beyond the finish line.


Thanks dude, I really appreciate it. Simper Fi by the way, I’m a former grunt 🤘

- - - Updated - - -


Thanks dude, I really appreciate it. Simper Fi by the way, I’m a former grunt 🤘

Lol semper*

[Rafenk]

Keep on keeping on my man. This place isn’t as lively as it once was, and a lot of the old guard come on sporadically.

Is CD all right?

[Turnover25]

Hey everyone.

I just finished my refeeding process, and I currently seem to be in a huge upswing. Yesterday was the best day I've had since this all began, and I noticed that I am sniffly and maybe a little sick. It feels like my brain fog has lifted and I can think. I'm concerned that once the cold clears, I am going to crash and go back to being barely able to function.

Can someone shed some light whether this is a good thing? Sign of improvement?

[barbaar]

I got a huge upswing after my juice feast. It lasted a few days, then I went back to 'normal'. Currently trending upwards again, just keep going!

[Turnover25]

Hey guys, so I completed my water fast a week and a half ish ago, then implemented the paleo diet then a few days later got sick with a pretty bad cold. When I was sick, I had a HUGE upswing. It was like everything vanished, brain fog lifted, no anxiety or panic, I could think. Now that I’m not sick I think my symptoms are coming back to me more and more each day. Can someone (preferably CD) shed some light on if this is a good thing or not? Sign of progress maybe?

[Cdsnuts]

Hey guys, so I completed my water fast a week and a half ish ago, then implemented the paleo diet then a few days later got sick with a pretty bad cold. When I was sick, I had a HUGE upswing. It was like everything vanished, brain fog lifted, no anxiety or panic, I could think. Now that I’m not sick I think my symptoms are coming back to me more and more each day. Can someone (preferably CD) shed some light on if this is a good thing or not? Sign of progress maybe?

Yes, it's progress. But then again you know that without having to be told. You can feel it. It's very easy to tell when things are going the right way because of how you feel. You're going to oscillate between good and bad during the entire healing journey. As long as you stay the course you have nothing to worry about.

[Turnover25]

Yes, it's progress. But then again you know that without having to be told. You can feel it. It's very easy to tell when things are going the right way because of how you feel. You're going to oscillate between good and bad during the entire healing journey. As long as you stay the course you have nothing to worry about.

Thanks CD. I’ll keep at it.

[Turnover25]

Hey guys. Completed a water fast and then took 3 weeks off of training and implemented paleo diet. My anxiety has been very under control. Today, I implemented my first day of calisthenics (pushups) and experienced a lot of anxiety while doing push-ups, and I’m still very anxious.

Is this normal? Any thoughts?

[Cdsnuts]

Hey guys. Completed a water fast and then took 3 weeks off of training and implemented paleo diet. My anxiety has been very under control. Today, I implemented my first day of calisthenics (pushups) and experienced a lot of anxiety while doing push-ups, and I’m still very anxious.

Is this normal? Any thoughts?

Yes, it's normal. As a matter of fact, everything that you're going to be feeling is normal for the condition you're in. You're going to feel good, then bad, then great, then bad again, and so on and so forth. You gotta just ride it out. You're going to be swaying back and forth like this all the while but you're going to be going in an upword trend healing wise.

[Turnover25]

Yes, it's normal. As a matter of fact, everything that you're going to be feeling is normal for the condition you're in. You're going to feel good, then bad, then great, then bad again, and so on and so forth. You gotta just ride it out. You're going to be swaying back and forth like this all the while but you're going to be going in an upword trend healing wise.

Thanks CD. It doesn’t seem to be a problem lately honestly, just that first morning of working out.

I had a question about cinnamon, I implement organic cinnamon into my paleo diet for some variety. Is this ok for the protocol? Or should I avoid it? Are most herbs and spices, salts and peppers ok for the diet as well?

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks CD. It doesn’t seem to be a problem lately honestly, just that first morning of working out.

I had a question about cinnamon, I implement organic cinnamon into my paleo diet for some variety. Is this ok for the protocol? Or should I avoid it? Are most herbs and spices, salts and peppers ok for the diet as well?

Yes, spices and cinnamon are fine.

[Turnover25]

Hey guys. I've been on the protocol for about 2 months, so I thought I'd give my first update. I'm doing much better than I was 2 months ago. I'm nowhere near where I want to be, but I've gotten loads better. I was unable to function a couple months ago, I believe I got hit with the mental side of things about as bad as it can get. I thought life was truly over, it isn't really like that anymore. I'm following the protocol exactly as it is laid out on TMO, so I just implemented light weight lifting, a month from now I'll be at the heavy lifting stage and I'll implement the herbs and HIIT. I haven't started the daily supplements yet because they used to give me massive issues with brain fog, but I'm going to try them soon. I'm nervous to start the herbs because I am still sensitive with food and stuff that I put in my body. But the paleo diet has done great things for me. My memory has improved, my brain fog isn't a thick, terrifying fog anymore, it's more like I just don't really think that clearly anymore. Depersonalization/derealization has all but faded, not an issue anymore. I still have vision issues, especially "tracers" as I call them, so like when things move, I can see them streaking behind (think shooting stars, or cars passing on a highway in a camera) so things like passing cars or people gesturing with their hands is weird for me. Still have a lot of issues with screens like TV or phones. Sometimes I forget where I am and don't really have that inner voice telling me what day it is, time, month, but seems to be improving? Anxiety is under control, it rears its head randomly (like yesterday) but it is much better now, inability to handle stress and panic attacks both seem to be gone. I'll update more later on, but just wanted to let everyone know how I'm doing. Thanks

[Maxout777]

Hey guys. I've been on the protocol for about 2 months, so I thought I'd give my first update. I'm doing much better than I was 2 months ago. I'm nowhere near where I want to be, but I've gotten loads better. I was unable to function a couple months ago, I believe I got hit with the mental side of things about as bad as it can get. I thought life was truly over, it isn't really like that anymore. I'm following the protocol exactly as it is laid out on TMO, so I just implemented light weight lifting, a month from now I'll be at the heavy lifting stage and I'll implement the herbs and HIIT. I haven't started the daily supplements yet because they used to give me massive issues with brain fog, but I'm going to try them soon. I'm nervous to start the herbs because I am still sensitive with food and stuff that I put in my body. But the paleo diet has done great things for me. My memory has improved, my brain fog isn't a thick, terrifying fog anymore, it's more like I just don't really think that clearly anymore. Depersonalization/derealization has all but faded, not an issue anymore. I still have vision issues, especially "tracers" as I call them, so like when things move, I can see them streaking behind (think shooting stars, or cars passing on a highway in a camera) so things like passing cars or people gesturing with their hands is weird for me. Still have a lot of issues with screens like TV or phones. Sometimes I forget where I am and don't really have that inner voice telling me what day it is, time, month, but seems to be improving? Anxiety is under control, it rears its head randomly (like yesterday) but it is much better now, inability to handle stress and panic attacks both seem to be gone. I'll update more later on, but just wanted to let everyone know how I'm doing. Thanks

You’re referring to eye floaters as tracers, and I had them. They’re gone now, but they were one of the far last things to go away.

[Turnover25]

You’re referring to eye floaters as tracers, and I had them. They’re gone now, but they were one of the far last things to go away.

Wow, really? I had no idea. I thought that by eye floaters people meant like black spots in the middle of their vision. If I remember correctly from reading through the site, you had issues with screens as well?

[Maxout777]

Wow, really? I had no idea. I thought that by eye floaters people meant like black spots in the middle of their vision. If I remember correctly from reading through the site, you had issues with screens as well?

They come in all shapes and sizes honestly. Both would be considered “floaters”. I did have awful time reading screens at work. My suggestion that I wish had been given to me at this point would’ve been to get a pair of blue blocker glasses.

[Turnover25]

They come in all shapes and sizes honestly. Both would be considered “floaters”. I did have awful time reading screens at work. My suggestion that I wish had been given to me at this point would’ve been to get a pair of blue blocker glasses.

I've found that also. I can only handle looking at screens with my glasses on, contacts are a no-go. I actually just got a pair of blue light blocking glasses that are non-prescription. For whatever reason they make my head burn and idk how, but apparently give me anxiety. Not sure how that even works. Normal glasses seem to be ok though. I'll probably try implementing them a little bit later on once I see some more improvements since wearing glasses all the time is a drag.

[alphacfi]

I couldnt look at any screens. I couldnt look at my iphone or my computer or tv or anything. Also looking at people I would see 2 heads all most. It was all contorted somehow. That has all gone away though. I still have eye floaters. Bunch of little black dots and squiggly lines everywhere. Especially when im looking at a white background. But I'll take that over the double vision or whatever. It'll go away on the protocol for sure!

[Turnover25]

I couldnt look at any screens. I couldnt look at my iphone or my computer or tv or anything. Also looking at people I would see 2 heads all most. It was all contorted somehow. That has all gone away though. I still have eye floaters. Bunch of little black dots and squiggly lines everywhere. Especially when im looking at a white background. But I'll take that over the double vision or whatever. It'll go away on the protocol for sure!

Hey man, thanks for the response. Did the screens hurt your head or what? Just make symptoms worse?

[Turnover25]

Spoke a little too soon. Huge downswing, gonna have to push through it. I masterbated for the first time in 2 months last week, I think that’s where this is coming from. A lot of derealization/vision/anxiety symptoms returned. Learning experience. But downswings are expected, no?

[Turnover25]

Began implementing vitamin D and magnesium and my sensitivity to screens has seemed to nearly vanish. Not sure how that works but I’m not complaining 👍

[Cdsnuts]

Began implementing vitamin D and magnesium and my sensitivity to screens has seemed to nearly vanish. Not sure how that works but I’m not complaining ��

As you start meeting all of your bodies needs things will start to come into balance and fix themselves. We can't always tell what that will exactly be, and in what order, we just need to trust in the fact that the body knows what it's doing.

[Turnover25]

As you start meeting all of your bodies needs things will start to come into balance and fix themselves. We can't always tell what that will exactly be, and in what order, we just need to trust in the fact that the body knows what it's doing.

Thanks man. I’m learning to trust the process more and more every day since it’s all done wonders. It’s funny because magnesium has given me a mental clarity I haven’t felt in years, before this mess I struggled with ADHD, since taking magnesium I’ve been able to focus with pin point precision. And now that I’ve been on the paleo diet I can’t imagine going back to filling my body with garbage. I have a feeling once I’m out of this mess, I’ll be glad it happened since I’ve created such a better lifestyle for myself.

[Turnover25]

So update, yesterday was Thanksgiving and I ended up having a cheat day on my diet for the first time in 2 and a halfish months. Ate some pie then said fuck it and went to town lol. Result, I definitely got a little worse, but the good news is I barely had any harsh reaction to all that sugar, grains, processed foods. And it looks like I’ve already bounced back from it by today. This is a massive improvement from a few months ago, I remember back when I was in the shit, eating a candy bar would send me into an effing psychosis type brain fog. I’m assuming that my gut has been healing? Not sure. But I’ll take it!!! Anxiety has been basically obliterated since I began supplementing magnesium. If you’re not taking magnesium, highly recommend. So yeah, I got a little worse, but I’ll take it as a victory since now I know that food won’t give me a severely bad reaction (Ive been nervous about slipping up since I haven’t cheated on diet since beginning), and now that the temptation is out of my system, I can get back to strict paleo. Also, the cheat meals made me feel like SHIT. I’m talking painfully bad. I have no desire to cheat again. Anyways, thats it. Things are looking up. Excited to keep it going

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks man. I’m learning to trust the process more and more every day since it’s all done wonders. It’s funny because magnesium has given me a mental clarity I haven’t felt in years, before this mess I struggled with ADHD, since taking magnesium I’ve been able to focus with pin point precision. And now that I’ve been on the paleo diet I can’t imagine going back to filling my body with garbage. I have a feeling once I’m out of this mess, I’ll be glad it happened since I’ve created such a better lifestyle for myself.

That is the general consensus, yes. Almost EVERYONE that goes through this says the same thing, because it's simply true. You will be a better version of yourself after you're through with this for sure.

And a general tip for supplementing vitamins and minerals is that after you're "topped off," you will reach a point where daily supplementation is too much with certain things. Some things will fall to being needed only a couple times a week, etc.

But yes, trusting in the process is your best bet for the fastest recovery possible. I understand how some guys can be trepidatious especially after coming from the medical world, but the ones who put complete faith behind their actions are the ones who recover the soonest.

[Turnover25]

That is the general consensus, yes. Almost EVERYONE that goes through this says the same thing, because it's simply true. You will be a better version of yourself after you're through with this for sure.

And a general tip for supplementing vitamins and minerals is that after you're "topped off," you will reach a point where daily supplementation is too much with certain things. Some things will fall to being needed only a couple times a week, etc.

But yes, trusting in the process is your best bet for the fastest recovery possible. I understand how some guys can be trepidatious especially after coming from the medical world, but the ones who put complete faith behind their actions are the ones who recover the soonest.

Thanks for the heads up. Is there signs to watch out for to know when you've been "topped off" on a vitamin or mineral? Would you say that holds true with a daily supplement such as Vitamin D?

[Benq123]

Thanks for the heads up. Is there signs to watch out for to know when you've been "topped off" on a vitamin or mineral? Would you say that holds true with a daily supplement such as Vitamin D?

I believe you should be testing your vitamin D at least once a year, so you can adjust your supplementation accordingly. Too high or too low are both problems. Vitamin D: More Is Not Better (https://chriskresser.com/vitamin-d-more-is-not-better/)

[Turnover25]

I believe you should be testing your vitamin D at least once a year, so you can adjust your supplementation accordingly. Too high or too low are both problems. Vitamin D: More Is Not Better (https://chriskresser.com/vitamin-d-more-is-not-better/)

I agree, I don't know much behind it but I know that Vitamin D made me feel horrible until I started supplementing magnesium alongside it. I read something about Vit D being able to cause magnesium deficiencies, seems to work out fine now. Although, I got my vitamin D checked a few months ago and I was a little bit beneath the minimum.

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks for the heads up. Is there signs to watch out for to know when you've been "topped off" on a vitamin or mineral? Would you say that holds true with a daily supplement such as Vitamin D?

Absolutely.

[Turnover25]

Absolutely.

Hey CD, is it recommended that we take a rest day once a week from lifting/HIIT?

[Benq123]

Hey CD, is it recommended that we take a rest day once a week from lifting/HIIT?

You should probably always have at least 1 rest day every week to prevent burnout, especially with PFS. Also remember to take a deload week/week off every once in a while, something like 6-12 weeks is the general recommendation.

[Turnover25]

You should probably always have at least 1 rest day every week to prevent burnout, especially with PFS. Also remember to take a deload week/week off every once in a while, something like 6-12 weeks is the general recommendation.

Thanks man.

[Cdsnuts]

Hey CD, is it recommended that we take a rest day once a week from lifting/HIIT?

Yes, for sure. But that being said, you could always do something very low impact such as yoga or a full body foam rolling session on that rest day.

[Turnover25]

Yes, for sure. But that being said, you could always do something very low impact such as yoga or a full body foam rolling session on that rest day.

Thanks CD, will do. Been on the protocol for about 3 months, just implemented heavy lifting, HIIT and carb backloading. Also just ordered 11 herbs to begin my rotation in the following couple of weeks once my semester ends and I get some down time. Been strict with diet, cold showers and xeno-estrogens since the start, excited to finally start cycling!

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks CD, will do. Been on the protocol for about 3 months, just implemented heavy lifting, HIIT and carb backloading. Also just ordered 11 herbs to begin my rotation in the following couple of weeks once my semester ends and I get some down time. Been strict with diet, cold showers and xeno-estrogens since the start, excited to finally start cycling!

Okay, so you haven't started the herbs yet? Did I read that wrong? If not, why did you wait so long?

[Turnover25]

Okay, so you haven't started the herbs yet? Did I read that wrong? If not, why did you wait so long?

Not yet. I wanted to follow TMO exactly as it was laid out, also it noted that I should wait until my diet and exercise were on point first so I built myself up. Also I noticed a lot of guys who jumped in early didn’t get results so I took things slow. Plus I was extremely sensitive to anything I put in my body so I that made me pretty nervous. I feel I’m in a better spot now to begin.

[Cdsnuts]

Not yet. I wanted to follow TMO exactly as it was laid out, also it noted that I should wait until my diet and exercise were on point first so I built myself up. Also I noticed a lot of guys who jumped in early didn’t get results so I took things slow. Plus I was extremely sensitive to anything I put in my body so I that made me pretty nervous. I feel I’m in a better spot now to begin.

You executed it perfectly then! I'm excited for you because with the introduction of the herbs in the state you've gotten yourself in, you're going to go up a couple levels relatively quickly for sure. Have you decided on how you're going to dose? It seems you've thought it out relatively well, which is why I ask.

[Turnover25]

You executed it perfectly then! I'm excited for you because with the introduction of the herbs in the state you've gotten yourself in, you're going to go up a couple levels relatively quickly for sure. Have you decided on how you're going to dose? It seems you've thought it out relatively well, which is why I ask.

Thanks, I'm excited too. I'm really hoping this is what I need to really give me that extra push to get out of this mess. I have good days and bad days that fluctuate pretty greatly, but some days (like today) I feel like I'm so close to having my mind clear up and returning back to reality and its like my body is teasing me lol. I haven't thought of dosing yet, I'm a fairly small dude and I've always been sensitive to things even before PFS (like meds and stuff) so I like to take my time and experiment with little doses before I jump in. That also helps me avoid bad reactions and brain fog flair ups that follow with those, which are never fun. I'll probably start with a dose in the morning for the first couple weeks then add in another dose at night once I've tested the waters.

[Turnover25]

You executed it perfectly then! I'm excited for you because with the introduction of the herbs in the state you've gotten yourself in, you're going to go up a couple levels relatively quickly for sure. Have you decided on how you're going to dose? It seems you've thought it out relatively well, which is why I ask.


Wanted your input on something (or anyone else who has recovered). It seems that either spiralina or chlorella are making me feel horrible, like a certain type of bad that I haven't felt since the beginning days. I really don't want to bin a daily supplement if its a crucial element to recovery, if need be, is it ok to do so? I'm wondering basically if maybe something making you feel bad could actually mean its working? Just wanted to ask before I make a decision. I was gonna take it for a little longer to see, but I can't realistically see myself staying in this mindset for too long, I'm feeling very dark/anxious/suicidal and that spacey brain fog feeling is back but it has been more absent for a while, also messing with my vision pretty bad.

[Maxout777]

Wanted your input on something (or anyone else who has recovered). It seems that either spiralina or chlorella are making me feel horrible, like a certain type of bad that I haven't felt since the beginning days. I really don't want to bin a daily supplement if its a crucial element to recovery, if need be, is it ok to do so? I'm wondering basically if maybe something making you feel bad could actually mean its working? Just wanted to ask before I make a decision. I was gonna take it for a little longer to see, but I can't realistically see myself staying in this mindset for too long, I'm feeling very dark/anxious/suicidal and that spacey brain fog feeling is back but it has been more absent for a while, also messing with my vision pretty bad.

I had the same problem on both. I binned them at the time, and never used them.

Knowing what I know now, you’re probably copper toxic, and these are both strong chelators of copper. When chelating copper you feel like shit. I’d just bin it for now.

[Turnover25]

I had the same problem on both. I binned them at the time, and never used them.

Knowing what I know now, you’re probably copper toxic, and these are both strong chelators of copper. When chelating copper you feel like shit. I’d just bin it for now.

Hey man, thanks for that. I feel better knowing you recovered without it, I’m going to bin them both and see how I feel in the following week.
I have a ton of tattoos, maybe that’s a cause for copper toxicity? Not sure exactly which types of heavy metals are in ink specifically.

[Turnover25]

Gonna make a little mental note here on my thread for future use, looking back at this stuff once I’ve made progress really helps remind me how far I’ve come. I’ve just hit a MASSIVE downswing, feels like the early days of crashing. Extremely bad fever, crushing migraine, memory loss, brain fog returned pretty much full force, SEVERE anhedonia. No anxiety though (score). I’ve forgotten just how brutal my brain fog used to be until now, I think when this passes, it’ll be a healthy reminder of the progress I’ve made. I no longer live in that state, thank god. I think I had a reaction to chlorella or spiralina, probably due to the detoxification of copper as Maxout was saying. Gonna ride this out, and bin them both for now. I’m not necessarily saying it’s a bad thing I feel this way, maybe I am in a cleansing mode. I had similar feelings during my water fast. This is why I like to implement things about 2/3 weeks at a time so I can rule out severe reactions instead of drinking out of a fire hose. Also, the supplements don’t seem to be an issue for others, not trying to scare anyone away from them but for me personally, they’re gonna be binned for now. Taking the next few days off from the gym to relax due to my fever, then I’ll be up and at em again.

[Turnover25]

Cdsnuts Maxout777 jacknap (or anyone else who has been doing HIIT for a while) Hey guys, had a couple questions. Is it normal for HIIT to be making me so much worse? My anxiety has basically been nonexistent for a while, but since HIIT it's been pretty persistent. Same with brain fog and eye floaters. I just want to make sure I'm not taxing my system too much if my body isn't ready yet. I plan to continue doing it unless someone with some experience advises against it for a while. Anyone else have similar experiences?

[Alchemy]

Cdsnuts Maxout777 jacknap (or anyone else who has been doing HIIT for a while) Hey guys, had a couple questions. Is it normal for HIIT to be making me so much worse? My anxiety has basically been nonexistent for a while, but since HIIT it's been pretty persistent. Same with brain fog and eye floaters. I just want to make sure I'm not taxing my system too much if my body isn't ready yet. I plan to continue doing it unless someone with some experience advises against it for a while. Anyone else have similar experiences?

How many times a week are you doing HIT and how long are you doing it?

I think the key is to listen to your body and ensure you are not overboard with intensity and that also applies to heavy lifting with weight training, so don't push yourself to complete failure/exhaustion, since our bodies are already in a weakened state.

[Bankai9000]

Ya I have that too. Whenever I do cold showers or swim in the cold sea my floaters get way worse. I try to pinpoint for a long time what affects the floaters especially and finally noticed last days that it seems that the moment I get more consistent sleep my floaters get less intrusive. They get almost unbearable when I'm sleepdeprived even when I don't feel sleepy or tired.
And I think with hiit or so it made me a bit anxious/"weaker" already pre pfs(when I now think about it, backthen I never noticed shite xd). I belive the right balance is key. I think stressing the system is crucial for health and recovery, but giving enough rest is just as important.

[Turnover25]

How many times a week are you doing HIT and how long are you doing it?

I think the key is to listen to your body and ensure you are not overboard with intensity and that also applies to heavy lifting with weight training, so don't push yourself to complete failure/exhaustion, since our bodies are already in a weakened state.

It’s hard to say how long I was doing it, but I was pushing myself way past the limit. I plan on toning it down a bit and building myself up, but I’m noticeably more fucked up since starting. But ups and downs is the name of the game.

- - - Updated - - -


Ya I have that too. Whenever I do cold showers or swim in the cold sea my floaters get way worse. I try to pinpoint for a long time what affects the floaters especially and finally noticed last days that it seems that the moment I get more consistent sleep my floaters get less intrusive. They get almost unbearable when I'm sleepdeprived even when I don't feel sleepy or tired.
And I think with hiit or so it made me a bit anxious/"weaker" already pre pfs(when I now think about it, backthen I never noticed shite xd). I belive the right balance is key. I think stressing the system is crucial for health and recovery, but giving enough rest is just as important.

I had issues with cold showers a while ago. I don’t anymore, I realized that I was negatively effecting myself in the beginning because I’d take a super hot shower, then shift it to cold suddenly and that would make my head numb as hell. It stopped when I implemented strictly cold showers.

[jacknap]

Cdsnuts Maxout777 jacknap (or anyone else who has been doing HIIT for a while) Hey guys, had a couple questions. Is it normal for HIIT to be making me so much worse? My anxiety has basically been nonexistent for a while, but since HIIT it's been pretty persistent. Same with brain fog and eye floaters. I just want to make sure I'm not taxing my system too much if my body isn't ready yet. I plan to continue doing it unless someone with some experience advises against it for a while. Anyone else have similar experiences?

explain to me how you do HIIT specifically.

[Turnover25]

So little update for everyone, today is my first day of herbs. I have an 11 day rotation, I started with pine pollen. I’ve been on the protocol for over 3 months now, I followed it EXACTLY as outlined on TMO. So I did a 5 day water fast (also I did a 7 day juice feast before that), then I took a few weeks off, started calisthenics and built myself up to heavy lifting with HIIT, strict paleo diet, cold showers and avoiding xenoestrogens. Along with magnesium and vitamin D3. Basically just a healthy lifestyle. I wanted to make sure I was nice and healthy before starting the herbs. But in the past 3 months I went from unfunctional, totally horrified and living in a nightmare to being functional again, and my PFS is honestly more inconvenient than it is devastating. I’m mostly on the mental symptom side of things, so some relief is a fucking miracle. All the progress I’ve made thus far is thanks to just living healthy and having some discipline. Really excited to start the herbs and start kicking recovery into full gear. I’m still pretty messed up, but better. Mainly struggling with brain fog still. I’ll update sometime soon. But the pine pollen herb finally gave me some aggression in the gym, and I’m feeling pretty good today. Alright thanks guys.

[Cdsnuts]

So little update for everyone, today is my first day of herbs. I have an 11 day rotation, I started with pine pollen. I’ve been on the protocol for over 3 months now, I followed it EXACTLY as outlined on TMO. So I did a 5 day water fast (also I did a 7 day juice feast before that), then I took a few weeks off, started calisthenics and built myself up to heavy lifting with HIIT, strict paleo diet, cold showers and avoiding xenoestrogens. Along with magnesium and vitamin D3. Basically just a healthy lifestyle. I wanted to make sure I was nice and healthy before starting the herbs. But in the past 3 months I went from unfunctional, totally horrified and living in a nightmare to being functional again, and my PFS is honestly more inconvenient than it is devastating. I’m mostly on the mental symptom side of things, so some relief is a fucking miracle. All the progress I’ve made thus far is thanks to just living healthy and having some discipline. Really excited to start the herbs and start kicking recovery into full gear. I’m still pretty messed up, but better. Mainly struggling with brain fog still. I’ll update sometime soon. But the pine pollen herb finally gave me some aggression in the gym, and I’m feeling pretty good today. Alright thanks guys.

As you continue to run the herbs you will notice this aggression start to build in a healthy way. You'll also notice other positive changes as well. They will help build your body so that you can tolerate HIIT a little bit better.

Concerning that, you may be a little too run down to handle that kind of output, so just drop down the reps. Instead of doing 6-8, do 1-3 and call it a day. See if stepping back on the output helps you, which it should.

[Turnover25]

As you continue to run the herbs you will notice this aggression start to build in a healthy way. You'll also notice other positive changes as well. They will help build your body so that you can tolerate HIIT a little bit better.

Concerning that, you may be a little too run down to handle that kind of output, so just drop down the reps. Instead of doing 6-8, do 1-3 and call it a day. See if stepping back on the output helps you, which it should.


I've toned down the HIIT a little bit, I went down to 5 sprints and I am adding 1 every week, depending on how I am feeling. It seems to have been improving, especially after the herbs.

The herbs are fantastic, some are better than others, and my fluctuations are much more intense, good and bad. I have already ordered about 10 more, including the Pine Pollen tincture, so I will be cycling around 20 herbs by next week. In regards to the herbs, they will just continue to keep building testosterone and improvements? I would think that they would spike your test levels the most when you first begin, but the more I research, they just continue to build up test levels. Interesting how that works.

The protocol is really no comparison with and without the herbs, I believe they are game changers. Since I've been on the protocol without herbs for 3 months, I think my mind was subconciously hoping that as soon as I begin the herbs, I will recover immediately. That didn't happen obviously, but I can notice there are changes being made. Just have to keep reminding myself that this is a marathon and not a sprint.

[Turnover25]

So little update and some questions, jumped on the herbs finally, I have about 20 of them. I'm still trying to figure out correct doses since some seem to affect me worse than others, but all in all I'm enjoying them and like the extra kick they give me. I've been crushing the gym lately and immediately came crashing down like a brick. The herbs give me a good aggressive feeling and finally make me want to go lift again like I used to, I might have went a bit overboard today by doing 4 sets of 8, 225 pound deadlifts and then same with squats (I'm thinking I'm pushing myself way too hard since I'm only 145 pounds) but I love lifting and it's frustrating that when I lift and sprint the way I want, my condition deteriorates. Later on during the day I couldn't even remember my own name and almost had to leave class due to having a panic attack and my brain fog was so intense. Really frustrating and confusing since I was doing so well.

Anyone know why pushing myself may be making me so much worse? Wondering if it's something with my endocrine system or whatever. I'm honestly so confused with all these medical terms that when shit comes up its hard to fix since I'm basically in the dark, or I would be without you guys. Regarding these issues, should I be avoiding coffee? I drink about 100 mg in the morning to start my day. I'm thinking as I continue the herbs my body is going to build itself up stronger to the point where I can handle these intense workouts, so I may have to tone it down a bit until then and build up slowly. I don't see this problem with many of the other guys here so it can be frustrating wondering whats going on with me.

Alright thanks guys. Slight speed bump but I'll get it figured out.

[Alchemy]

So little update and some questions, jumped on the herbs finally, I have about 20 of them. I'm still trying to figure out correct doses since some seem to affect me worse than others, but all in all I'm enjoying them and like the extra kick they give me. I've been crushing the gym lately and immediately came crashing down like a brick. The herbs give me a good aggressive feeling and finally make me want to go lift again like I used to, I might have went a bit overboard today by doing 4 sets of 8, 225 pound deadlifts and then same with squats (I'm thinking I'm pushing myself way too hard since I'm only 145 pounds) but I love lifting and it's frustrating that when I lift and sprint the way I want, my condition deteriorates. Later on during the day I couldn't even remember my own name and almost had to leave class due to having a panic attack and my brain fog was so intense. Really frustrating and confusing since I was doing so well.

Anyone know why pushing myself may be making me so much worse? Wondering if it's something with my endocrine system or whatever. I'm honestly so confused with all these medical terms that when shit comes up its hard to fix since I'm basically in the dark, or I would be without you guys. Regarding these issues, should I be avoiding coffee? I drink about 100 mg in the morning to start my day. I'm thinking as I continue the herbs my body is going to build itself up stronger to the point where I can handle these intense workouts, so I may have to tone it down a bit until then and build up slowly. I don't see this problem with many of the other guys here so it can be frustrating wondering whats going on with me.

Alright thanks guys. Slight speed bump but I'll get it figured out.

Deadlifts and Squats on same session lifting heavy for 4 sets, of course you're going to wipe yourself out. Without pfs you'd be on the road to overtraining doing that. Two major compound lifts that target the same muscle areas of your body, is overload

Split them up or rotate the times you do them. Deadlifts is legs, lower back,traps and core, squats is core and legs. You don't need to do them together in the same session, it's actually counter productive in your case.

If you want to go all out, less is more, otherwise you will push your body into a catabolic stress response.

In such a weakened state, 1-2 sets going to failure is enough. You can still do 4 sets but don't go all out on all 4. You will still build muscle and strength this way, only your ego will suffer a little bit

[xxaleksi]

Yeah the herbs are game changers for sure. I noticed significant mood improvements in a month when I first started rotating them. I don't really feel the individual herbs that much, but over time they definitely do help.

[Turnover25]

Deadlifts and Squats on same session lifting heavy for 4 sets, of course you're going to wipe yourself out. Without pfs you'd be on the road to overtraining doing that. Two major compound lifts that target the same muscle areas of your body, is overload

Split them up or rotate the times you do them. Deadlifts is legs, lower back,traps and core, squats is core and legs. You don't need to do them together in the same session, it's actually counter productive in your case.

If you want to go all out, less is more, otherwise you will push your body into a catabolic stress response.

In such a weakened state, 1-2 sets going to failure is enough. You can still do 4 sets but don't go all out on all 4. You will still build muscle and strength this way, only your ego will suffer a little bit

Thanks bro. I'm going to decrease my amount of output from now on. I think I have been running into issues with overtraining, especially while in a PFS state. Do you think that "less is more" stands true for the herb rotation as well? I'm trying to figure out the correct doses, I find that if I run into any issues with the herbs, it's always after my second dose, such as headaches, fatigue, brain fog, anxiety. I think that I've been so focused on trying to beat this thing that I end up going overboard on things and do myself a little more damage than good. I'm not a very big dude, so would taking the smallest recommended dose be a better option than taking larger doses of the herbs? I feel like I want them to work so I take a bit too much. Just not sure how dosing works or if they work as effectively if you take less.

[Turnover25]

Yeah the herbs are game changers for sure. I noticed significant mood improvements in a month when I first started rotating them. I don't really feel the individual herbs that much, but over time they definitely do help.

Yeah man I noticed that too, actually in the first week or so. I actually felt a sense of normality or content, where as in the 7 months prior I've been a walking emotionless zombie. I have noticed that I feel much more effect from the Lost Empire Herbs products that I rotate, as opposed to other brands that I cycle. My first 10 days or so with the LEH herbs was great, the past week or so with other brands hasn't been as great. That fluctuation might just be upswings and downswings though. How did your moods fluctuate? Also, I remember you saying you had issues with exercise and HIIT in the beginning as well, I'm in that stage right now. Hopefully that steadily improves.

[xxaleksi]

Yeah man I noticed that too, actually in the first week or so. I actually felt a sense of normality or content, where as in the 7 months prior I've been a walking emotionless zombie. I have noticed that I feel much more effect from the Lost Empire Herbs products that I rotate, as opposed to other brands that I cycle. My first 10 days or so with the LEH herbs was great, the past week or so with other brands hasn't been as great. That fluctuation might just be upswings and downswings though. How did your moods fluctuate? Also, I remember you saying you had issues with exercise and HIIT in the beginning as well, I'm in that stage right now. Hopefully that steadily improves.
Yeah I had crazy mood swings in the first few months of PFS. Imo you just have to find a way to "separate" yourself from your thoughts. Over time it gets better. I'd say my mood felt pretty stable after my first cycle of androhard.

Regarding the exercise, yeah, I was so bad off that lifting weights and especially HIIT would make me feel extremely dizzy, to the point where I was nervous I'd pass out. I just pushed through it after reading English had the same thing and it improved for him.

[Alchemy]

Thanks bro. I'm going to decrease my amount of output from now on. I think I have been running into issues with overtraining, especially while in a PFS state. Do you think that "less is more" stands true for the herb rotation as well? I'm trying to figure out the correct doses, I find that if I run into any issues with the herbs, it's always after my second dose, such as headaches, fatigue, brain fog, anxiety. I think that I've been so focused on trying to beat this thing that I end up going overboard on things and do myself a little more damage than good. I'm not a very big dude, so would taking the smallest recommended dose be a better option than taking larger doses of the herbs? I feel like I want them to work so I take a bit too much. Just not sure how dosing works or if they work as effectively if you take less.

With the herbs I just stick to the recommend dosage on the bottle.

In some cases if I see the RD is low , I up it for some herbs(always research if it's safe to go over the dose) and it hasn't been a problem.

In your case of it having a deleterious then it would make sense to reduce it. Over time you will get enough needed through rotation and it building up in your system. So I yes, slowly slowly rather than mega-dosing on things which you have not got to much knowledge on.

[Turnover25]

Hey guys,

so since starting the herbs a couple weeks ago it's been quite a ride already. I had a question for those who have been using them for a while. Since beginning, it seems like literally every single symptom I used to have that went away has returned, like super dry skin, brain fog making it impossible to think or make decisions, food sensitivities, bad digestion, inability to handle stress, panic and anxiety. I haven't felt like this the entire time but recently about the past week and a half or so, all of this has returned. Is this normal, and what we'd call downswings? I don't really think I've had any severe downswings in the past because I haven't been on the herbs until recently. I have no idea how the herbs would be causing my body to do this. I'm not too worried about it, but I am just wondering how everyone else reacts.

Thanks guys

[Alchemy]

What herbs are you cycling?

And what's your diet like buddy, it could be something that you're consuming that's triggering a bad reaction

If it's not those things it can just be a downswing that you have a ride out or a reaction from overtraining/overstressing your system.

Rest is just as important as activity during recovery.

[barbaar]

Could be just a downswing, I'm going through the same thing currently. The past week has been the first "bad" downswing since I've started the protocol. Just gotta ride it out and look forward to the better times.

[dogglaw]

the effect of the herbs, from my experience, has been pretty subtle. but you gotta feel comfort in the fact that they're fundamentally agents of good for your system and the likelihood of them causing a negative reaction is very low. they don't work by harshly targeting parts of your body like pharma drugs, they just gently help to push your body in the right direction as you steer the ship.

but i hear you on the downswing man. never a fun thing, you just gotta keep pushing, which i can tell you have been. make sure you're not overtraining, make sure your diet is on point, and do things to de-stress. you got this.

[Cdsnuts]

Yeah man I noticed that too, actually in the first week or so. I actually felt a sense of normality or content, where as in the 7 months prior I've been a walking emotionless zombie. I have noticed that I feel much more effect from the Lost Empire Herbs products that I rotate, as opposed to other brands that I cycle. My first 10 days or so with the LEH herbs was great, the past week or so with other brands hasn't been as great. That fluctuation might just be upswings and downswings though. How did your moods fluctuate? Also, I remember you saying you had issues with exercise and HIIT in the beginning as well, I'm in that stage right now. Hopefully that steadily improves.

There is a reason that what is recommended on the website is, well.....recommended. Follow it as close as possible.

[Cdsnuts]

Follow the basic dosing instructions on each herb unless you're mega dosing.

And one of the trickiest things for me is working with individuals who have completely different exercise tolerances and capabilities because this significantly plays into how hard they should be going into each work out.

Put it this way.....you have to find your own fine line when it comes to this. You want to be pushing yourself enough so that you're making progress but not so much that you're sending your self into another dimension. It takes time and practice but you will find your sweet spot as you go along.

[mcbbould]

Hey man - where can I find english’s post would love to read

[Turnover25]

Hey man - where can I find english’s post would love to read

Hey bud, I don't remember honestly. Either here or on PPH. But I'd advise staying off of that website.

[Cdsnuts]

It's on here somewhere......try and use the search function, but I know it's definitely on this forum.

[Turnover25]

Hey guys, little update. 2 days ago was the best I've felt since this whole mess began. Matter of fact, it was the best I have felt in years honestly. Followed by yesterday, which was an absolutely horrible day for no particular reason. Couldn't control my anxiety, panic attacks, stress, brain fog, couldn't look at screens, I was a mess. Followed by today which I am feeling fantastic again. Just a really good mood, clear minded and feeling content. Looks like I am in the land of fluctuations now. Also, went ahead and did that dentist operation without any numbing medicine. Wasn't too bad honestly, I guess the protocol is toughening me up a bit. Must be the cold showers :cool:

Anyways, thanks guys. Have a good week.

[Cdsnuts]

Hey guys, little update. 2 days ago was the best I've felt since this whole mess began. Matter of fact, it was the best I have felt in years honestly. Followed by yesterday, which was an absolutely horrible day for no particular reason. Couldn't control my anxiety, panic attacks, stress, brain fog, couldn't look at screens, I was a mess. Followed by today which I am feeling fantastic again. Just a really good mood, clear minded and feeling content. Looks like I am in the land of fluctuations now. Also, went ahead and did that dentist operation without any numbing medicine. Wasn't too bad honestly, I guess the protocol is toughening me up a bit. Must be the cold showers :cool:

Anyways, thanks guys. Have a good week.

I know it's a tough spot to be in, but those fluctuations are a great sign. They do a number on your mentality though.

Keep pushing man.....you got this.

[Turnover25]

I know it's a tough spot to be in, but those fluctuations are a great sign. They do a number on your mentality though.

Keep pushing man.....you got this.

They definitely do a number on me, but I would take ups and downs over how I felt constantly just about 4 months ago. But since starting the herbs I am really feeling things kick into gear. Especially since I started taking pine pollen powder daily, that has been a game changer.

Thanks for the words of encouragement man. I'm here for the long haul.

[Turnover25]

Maxout777 Going to a wedding with a bunch of my old buddies from the Corps tomorrow. Gonna be interesting when they find out I'm not going to be getting shitfaced with them lol

[Maxout777]

Maxout777 Going to a wedding with a bunch of my old buddies from the Corps tomorrow. Gonna be interesting when they find out I'm not going to be getting shitfaced with them lol

Hope it went well my man. My Corps buddies were the worst about not understanding the whole not drinking thing haha. It’s basically the foundation for all of our memories as I’m sure you’re familiar with!

[Turnover25]

Cdsnuts Decided to add some gluten/dairy free ice cream/cookies/chips into my backloading window last night. Feeling pretty great today actually, also feeling a big weight off my shoulders by not feeling so restricted by diet now that I know I can have the occasional cheat night. Why is it that all bets are off while backloading? I would imagine that all the refined sugars, etc. couldn't be good for recovery?

[Ratchet]

Cdsnuts Decided to add some gluten/dairy free ice cream/cookies/chips into my backloading window last night. Feeling pretty great today actually, also feeling a big weight off my shoulders by not feeling so restricted by diet now that I know I can have the occasional cheat night. Why is it that all bets are off while backloading? I would imagine that all the refined sugars, etc. couldn't be good for recovery?

Hey man, just read your whole thread. I am only slightly behind you but have experienced the same things as you almost to a T. Starting my herbs here soon, having similar fluctuations. Keep me posted - we got this!

Higher glycemic carbs are good post-workout for glycogen replenishment, hence the “cheat meals”. I personally stick with sweet potatoes and cleaner carbs. Maybe throw a few dates/figs in there if you have a sweet tooth.

Best

[Cdsnuts]

Higher glycemic carbs are good post-workout for glycogen replenishment, hence the “cheat meals”. I personally stick with sweet potatoes and cleaner carbs. Maybe throw a few dates/figs in there if you have a sweet tooth.

Best

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Turnover25]

Hey man, just read your whole thread. I am only slightly behind you but have experienced the same things as you almost to a T. Starting my herbs here soon, having similar fluctuations. Keep me posted - we got this!

Higher glycemic carbs are good post-workout for glycogen replenishment, hence the “cheat meals”. I personally stick with sweet potatoes and cleaner carbs. Maybe throw a few dates/figs in there if you have a sweet tooth.

Best

I guess that explains why I am feeling so jacked after the junk food. Thanks for reading the thread man, hopefully it serves as inspiration for you. I was in the depths and now I believe life is starting to really come back around for me. The herbs are going to be a game changer for you, they are like medicine when it comes to PFS. Pine pollen especially.

[Cdsnuts]

I guess that explains why I am feeling so jacked after the junk food. Thanks for reading the thread man, hopefully it serves as inspiration for you. I was in the depths and now I believe life is starting to really come back around for me. The herbs are going to be a game changer for you, they are like medicine when it comes to PFS. Pine pollen especially.

This is partially true. Just keep in mind that they are just one part of the big puzzle and they wouldn't work nearly as well if you weren't doing everything else you need to be doing. Each part of the protocol synergises with the next. The sum of all the parts are greater then the parts on their own.

[Turnover25]

This is partially true. Just keep in mind that they are just one part of the big puzzle and they wouldn't work nearly as well if you weren't doing everything else you need to be doing. Each part of the protocol synergises with the next. The sum of all the parts are greater then the parts on their own.

Yes absolutely. Assuming you've got the framework locked in, the herbs are great. From my personal experience, I built my framework for a few months and then once I added the herbs, it was honestly a night and day difference. Funny coincidence, I'm learning about synergy in one of my classes right now also.

As far as the french fries and ice cream added into your backloading window, I understand the replenishment of glycogen now that I've had it explained, I could see the benefits of that in a fitness sense, but regarding a PFS state, wouldn't the implementation of gluten free junk food still hinder your condition? I can't imagine that I could add in high quality ice cream into my backloading days and still recover, since it's still junk food. Or is there something about backloading that makes it alright? Wondering if you could shed some light on that for me.

[Cdsnuts]

Yes absolutely. Assuming you've got the framework locked in, the herbs are great. From my personal experience, I built my framework for a few months and then once I added the herbs, it was honestly a night and day difference. Funny coincidence, I'm learning about synergy in one of my classes right now also.

As far as the french fries and ice cream added into your backloading window, I understand the replenishment of glycogen now that I've had it explained, I could see the benefits of that in a fitness sense, but regarding a PFS state, wouldn't the implementation of gluten free junk food still hinder your condition? I can't imagine that I could add in high quality ice cream into my backloading days and still recover, since it's still junk food. Or is there something about backloading that makes it alright? Wondering if you could shed some light on that for me.

I'm wondering why you think you couldn't recover because you ate ice cream? it's dairy, fat, and sugar.....that's it.

With backloading, it's all about manipulating hormones to your advantage. Insulin, Growth hormone, testosterone, etc. By backloading in a specific window AFTER intense weight training you take advantage of the bodies natural use of these hormones and use them to help you, not hinder you. By utilizing this method you use the insulin response to shuttle the glycogen directly into the muscle instead of fat. This causes and increase in muscle mass which directly effects other hormones in the system. It basically starts a positive hormonal cascade that does nothing but good things. After a good healthy backload you'll even sleep better. Once you get used to it, you can actually feel the muscles being pumped full of sugars. It has it's own "feel" which you'll come to notice. (and love)

One of my favorite feelings is crushing a good workout and then slamming down a few backloads that night. My body buzzes with energy and I can feel myself getting filled up. You go to bed with a huge, bloated carb stomach and wake up being shredded with bulging muscles that have a slight pump, as if you just worked out. Great feeling.

[Turnover25]

I'm wondering why you think you couldn't recover because you ate ice cream? it's dairy, fat, and sugar.....that's it.

With backloading, it's all about manipulating hormones to your advantage. Insulin, Growth hormone, testosterone, etc. By backloading in a specific window AFTER intense weight training you take advantage of the bodies natural use of these hormones and use them to help you, not hinder you. By utilizing this method you use the insulin response to shuttle the glycogen directly into the muscle instead of fat. This causes and increase in muscle mass which directly effects other hormones in the system. It basically starts a positive hormonal cascade that does nothing but good things. After a good healthy backload you'll even sleep better. Once you get used to it, you can actually feel the muscles being pumped full of sugars. It has it's own "feel" which you'll come to notice. (and love)

One of my favorite feelings is crushing a good workout and then slamming down a few backloads that night. My body buzzes with energy and I can feel myself getting filled up. You go to bed with a huge, bloated carb stomach and wake up being shredded with bulging muscles that have a slight pump, as if you just worked out. Great feeling.


Well, the thought process behind it was just being so strict about diet since I've started the protocol, and living in a PFS state and having been affected so badly, I didn't realize that ice cream was ok. I thought any junk food would completely throw off recovery basically, now that you explain the hormonal aspect of it that makes way more sense.

I was wondering this because after you said ice cream was good to go, I added it into my backloading window and I was shocked that I actually felt better than I did before. Back when I crashed, any sugar would send me off the deep end. But I smashed some high quality ice cream in my backloading window and exactly how you just explained, I basically felt my muscles pump larger and I felt jacked, also felt more clear minded and in a good mood. I guess that its hormones coming into play. This is all news to me, so I'm very interested. I usually just eat sweet potatoes in my backloading window, this makes the protocol that much better since I'm already feeling great while on it. This was really helpful though, thanks for the clarification.

[Cdsnuts]

Well, the thought process behind it was just being so strict about diet since I've started the protocol, and living in a PFS state and having been affected so badly, I didn't realize that ice cream was ok. I thought any junk food would completely throw off recovery basically, now that you explain the hormonal aspect of it that makes way more sense.

I was wondering this because after you said ice cream was good to go, I added it into my backloading window and I was shocked that I actually felt better than I did before. Back when I crashed, any sugar would send me off the deep end. But I smashed some high quality ice cream in my backloading window and exactly how you just explained, I basically felt my muscles pump larger and I felt jacked, also felt more clear minded and in a good mood. I guess that its hormones coming into play. This is all news to me, so I'm very interested. I usually just eat sweet potatoes in my backloading window, this makes the protocol that much better since I'm already feeling great while on it. This was really helpful though, thanks for the clarification.

Good.

And good for you for already feeling the magic.

[Maxout777]

I can attest to ice cream not impeding recovery. I used to eat a pint before bed during my backloads, lol.

[Turnover25]

I can attest to ice cream not impeding recovery. I used to eat a pint before bed during my backloads, lol.

Lmao, that’s about where I’m at right now. Probably going to lessen it up a bit or become a fatass. But at least I’ll be happy.

[Turnover25]

Maxout777 I was just reading a little bit about backloading and noticed John Kiefer talked about skipping breakfast and only having some coffee in the mornings with some MCT oil mixed in. Isn’t that what you did during recovery?

[Turnover25]

Good.

And good for you for already feeling the magic.

This may be a stupid question, but on this forum I'd like to think that for the most part there's no such thing as a stupid question, given how surreal this shit is anyways. How do you feel about riding a bicycle during recovery? My favorite hobby is riding my bike around for 5-10 miles or so, nothing crazy just brisk riding. I wonder because I know that TMO says that running shouldn't be included in recovery, only HIIT. Im not talking about replacing heavy weights or HIIT either, just riding when I get bored or to get some sun exposure.

Also, is there a consensus on soy? I actively avoid it. But I've heard mixed things about what it does to hormones, about estrogen in particular. I'm wondering because I noticed that my avocado cooking spray contained soy so I tossed it.

[Maxout777]

Maxout777 I was just reading a little bit about backloading and noticed John Kiefer talked about skipping breakfast and only having some coffee in the mornings with some MCT oil mixed in. Isn’t that what you did during recovery?

Yep, did Bulletproof coffee for breakfast and still do till this day.

[Cdsnuts]

This may be a stupid question, but on this forum I'd like to think that for the most part there's no such thing as a stupid question, given how surreal this shit is anyways. How do you feel about riding a bicycle during recovery? My favorite hobby is riding my bike around for 5-10 miles or so, nothing crazy just brisk riding. I wonder because I know that TMO says that running shouldn't be included in recovery, only HIIT. Im not talking about replacing heavy weights or HIIT either, just riding when I get bored or to get some sun exposure.

Also, is there a consensus on soy? I actively avoid it. But I've heard mixed things about what it does to hormones, about estrogen in particular. I'm wondering because I noticed that my avocado cooking spray contained soy so I tossed it.

No stupid questions, correct. Well.....to a point......lol.

Nothing wrong with riding your bike brother. When I say running shouldn't be included, that's taken out of context. Running shouldn't be used as the sole form of exercise is more like it. When it comes to sports or hobbies, ALL activity is good activity. When it comes to getting in shape though, there are specific ways of going about it to get the most bang for your buck, so to speak.

Avoid soy like the plague.

[Turnover25]

No stupid questions, correct. Well.....to a point......lol.

Nothing wrong with riding your bike brother. When I say running shouldn't be included, that's taken out of context. Running shouldn't be used as the sole form of exercise is more like it. When it comes to sports or hobbies, ALL activity is good activity. When it comes to getting in shape though, there are specific ways of going about it to get the most bang for your buck, so to speak.

Avoid soy like the plague.

Awesome. Thanks as always, my man.

- - - Updated - - -


Yep, did Bulletproof coffee for breakfast and still do till this day.

What made you decide to start doing that? I've been thinking of doing the same, wondering what sort of benefits you noticed from it?

[Maxout777]

Awesome. Thanks as always, my man.

- - - Updated - - -



What made you decide to start doing that? I've been thinking of doing the same, wondering what sort of benefits you noticed from it?

Increased metabolism and energy in the mornings. I’ve always drank coffee anyway, this seems to take the stress response away with coffee, plus gives you that mental energy and enough calories to get you till lunch and be low carb.

You can also add Lion’s Mane to it before mixing and get the benefits of that in the coffee. Take a swish of water to down some bacopa and gotu kola and then drink the coffee and you’ll be in for mental bliss.

[Benq123]

Increased metabolism and energy in the mornings. I’ve always drank coffee anyway, this seems to take the stress response away with coffee, plus gives you that mental energy and enough calories to get you till lunch and be low carb.

You can also add Lion’s Mane to it before mixing and get the benefits of that in the coffee. Take a swish of water to down some bacopa and gotu kola and then drink the coffee and you’ll be in for mental bliss.

Apparently also, the butter helps to slow release the caffeine, so you get more sustained energy rather than a big rise and fall.

[Ratchet]

How are you doing? I started herbs today. I noted that you had an initially bad experience with the herbs, and then things got better. Has that trend continued?

I didn’t think this was possible, but I took 1 tbsp of pine pollen and 1/2 tsp of cistanche this morning, and I already feel way worse. Most of my hallmark sides (difficulty speaking out loud, thinking, hourglass shape dick, you name it) all resurfaced after a nice trend upwards this week. I know the name of the game here, but I’m feeling a little deterred considering how good I was feeling before I took the herbs.

Hope all the best, looking forward to your update.

[Turnover25]

How are you doing? I started herbs today. I noted that you had an initially bad experience with the herbs, and then things got better. Has that trend continued?

I didn’t think this was possible, but I took 1 tbsp of pine pollen and 1/2 tsp of cistanche this morning, and I already feel way worse. Most of my hallmark sides (difficulty speaking out loud, thinking, hourglass shape dick, you name it) all resurfaced after a nice trend upwards this week. I know the name of the game here, but I’m feeling a little deterred considering how good I was feeling before I took the herbs.

Hope all the best, looking forward to your update.

I’m doing alright man. So with the herbs, you’re gonna fluctuate up and down. There was a few herbs that I tried a few times then binned because I reacted poorly, but sometimes one herb will make me feel good then make me feel bad. I think your body is fluctuating in itself and not just the effect of the herb. I have random sides resurface then go back away. Keep I’m keeping on brother. Personally I wouldn’t go back to life without the herbs.

Also, my bad days (for now) are definitely worse since starting herbs. But my good days are also better. I’ll take that over life before the herbs, I didn’t feel anything. Not really bad, but not good. I had some of the same thoughts you just said, but think about it, was it REALLY that much easier to get words out before you started? And your thinking was where you wanted it? Probably not. So downswings are just a price to pay to make the investment of getting your life back my man.

[Ratchet]

Yeah, I’m more concerned about the pine pollen. It sounds like most guys have nothing but good things to say about it, but I felt like shit after taking 1/2 tbsp in the morning, very slowly started to return to somewhat normal, took another 1/2 tbsp in the late afternoon pre-workout, and with it 45 mins was worse than I was in the morning. Did you have experiences like this with PP or should I backburner it and just continue with other herbs? I know some of these take a while for benefits, but my reaction was pretty quick and pretty negative.

[Cdsnuts]

Yeah, I’m more concerned about the pine pollen. It sounds like most guys have nothing but good things to say about it, but I felt like shit after taking 1/2 tbsp in the morning, very slowly started to return to somewhat normal, took another 1/2 tbsp in the late afternoon pre-workout, and with it 45 mins was worse than I was in the morning. Did you have experiences like this with PP or should I backburner it and just continue with other herbs? I know some of these take a while for benefits, but my reaction was pretty quick and pretty negative.

You could possibly be allergic to it. It's a very small possibility. Most men have nothing but good things to say about this herb, myself included.

[Carni]

The b vitamin is interesting i've been listening quite alot on Natasha Mcbride the founder of gaps diet (pretty much paleo) and she says b vitamins are made in the gut. And with compromised gut flora you don't get enough of them and schould suplement until your flora does it for you.
I've been thinking of getting a b complex but haven't yet cause some say they have crashed on methylated b vitamins

[Turnover25]

Cdsnuts Hey CD, I binned spirulina and chlorella a few months ago after I got crash-like symptoms after my body started detoxing heavy metals I believe. Afterward, I developed a fever, vision turned weird and yellow, light sensitivity, extremely bad headache and I got really sick for about 2 weeks. I just had the same experience, though not as bad (Yet) after taking methyl-folate two days in a row, which I learned can also detox heavy metals. I'm thinking it's more than just a coincidence and that I didn't just randomly get sick both times. Is this metal detox thing something I should be looking into, or should I just avoid things that detox heavy metals?

Also to everyone, I deleted my progress post just because I felt I spoke too soon. I have a weird habit of posting progress reports just before I enter hellish downswings. I'll update in the future.

[Cdsnuts]

Cdsnuts Hey CD, I binned spirulina and chlorella a few months ago after I got crash-like symptoms after my body started detoxing heavy metals I believe. Afterward, I developed a fever, vision turned weird and yellow, light sensitivity, extremely bad headache and I got really sick for about 2 weeks. I just had the same experience, though not as bad (Yet) after taking methyl-folate two days in a row, which I learned can also detox heavy metals. I'm thinking it's more than just a coincidence and that I didn't just randomly get sick both times. Is this metal detox thing something I should be looking into, or should I just avoid things that detox heavy metals?

Also to everyone, I deleted my progress post just because I felt I spoke too soon. I have a weird habit of posting progress reports just before I enter hellish downswings. I'll update in the future.

Yes, but you could simply back down off the dose of both of those things so that it's not so intense and do it gradually over time, which is what happens on the protocol in the first place.

And, fyi, it's called the calm before the storm. I always felt my absolute best before getting hit with a downswing. After awhile I knew when one was going to come simply when I started feeling too good, I knew what was around the corner. Just the way it is.

[Turnover25]

Yes, but you could simply back down off the dose of both of those things so that it's not so intense and do it gradually over time, which is what happens on the protocol in the first place.

And, fyi, it's called the calm before the storm. I always felt my absolute best before getting hit with a downswing. After awhile I knew when one was going to come simply when I started feeling too good, I knew what was around the corner. Just the way it is.


Sorry CD, I’m not understanding correctly. Yes to which part?

[Ratchet]

Hey man, I read your lengthy progress post and was glad to hear that you were doing well! I’m sorry to hear that you’re in a downswing now.

I don’t think you should have deleted your post, anyways. You’re not accountable to anybody here but yourself, so no need to worry about posting too soon or coming across disingenuous. It would have been a nice post to look back upon in the future for yourself and others, whether it be from a downswing or when you’re fully recovered.

I will say that each time I have posted about feeling good, it’s been followed by feeling kind of shitty again. A lot of us here, myself included, were considerably traumatized by this experience, so when a sense of normality and and good occurs, we actually experience stress and anxiety (probably out of fear of an impending downswing, or that this good feeling won’t last, etc) and this is a considerable contributor to the ensuing downswing. It could also be like CD says, where downswings just naturally proceed the best part of an upswing when we feel like talking and writing about it. These are just things to be aware of so you can better learn to trust yourself and the the process and let go of any anxiety you might have that arises when things are good, cause stress and anxiety will set you back a little bit.

Otherwise, keep fighting the good fight, and I think you’ll be okay on the B Vitamins and algae. If you’re feeling strong enough and capable enough to face a downswing, then go for both and see how you feel. I was once afraid of eating coconuts cause Lauric acid is on the 5ar inhibitor wiki. When I wasnt afraid of a downswing, I said fuck it, and literally ate an entire bag of coconut chips and a carton of coconut milk and some shit dressed in coconut oil. I did this for a few days, and not much notable happened. Now I eat coconut everyday because I love it. I plan on doing this with other things that I’m worried about in the future I.e gluten, booze, etc.

All the best!

[Turnover25]

Hey man, I read your lengthy progress post and was glad to hear that you were doing well! I’m sorry to hear that you’re in a downswing now.

I don’t think you should have deleted your post, anyways. You’re not accountable to anybody here but yourself, so no need to worry about posting too soon or coming across disingenuous. It would have been a nice post to look back upon in the future for yourself and others, whether it be from a downswing or when you’re fully recovered.

I will say that each time I have posted about feeling good, it’s been followed by feeling kind of shitty again. A lot of us here, myself included, were considerably traumatized by this experience, so when a sense of normality and and good occurs, we actually experience stress and anxiety (probably out of fear of an impending downswing, or that this good feeling won’t last, etc) and this is a considerable contributor to the ensuing downswing. It could also be like CD says, where downswings just naturally proceed the best part of an upswing when we feel like talking and writing about it. These are just things to be aware of so you can better learn to trust yourself and the the process and let go of any anxiety you might have that arises when things are good, cause stress and anxiety will set you back a little bit.

Otherwise, keep fighting the good fight, and I think you’ll be okay on the B Vitamins and algae. If you’re feeling strong enough and capable enough to face a downswing, then go for both and see how you feel. I was once afraid of eating coconuts cause Lauric acid is on the 5ar inhibitor wiki. When I wasnt afraid of a downswing, I said fuck it, and literally ate an entire bag of coconut chips and a carton of coconut milk and some shit dressed in coconut oil. I did this for a few days, and not much notable happened. Now I eat coconut everyday because I love it. I plan on doing this with other things that I’m worried about in the future I.e gluten, booze, etc.

All the best!


Hey man, thanks for the encouraging words. It really goes a long way. But yeah, I believe that a large part of this is fueled by anxiety and trauma. Which is a reason I feel somewhat guilty or whatever after posting, kinda like a placebo effect. Being on forums make this thing more real for me, so I try and avoid posting and get back to living my life. It's more difficult said than done though because I feel fine when I am at home relaxing, but once I go out in the real world it becomes very apparent just how tough things are right now.

But thanks for the advice man. I'll keep that in mind. Honestly I don't plan on going back to either gluten or booze. I found out after cutting it out for months that I truly can't handle gluten, it wrecks me. I was diagnosed with GERD a couple years ago and had to get a surgery because my esophagus basically became paralyzed for some reason, I'm assuming now that gluten was the culprit. Mostly because when I eat it I'm bed ridden haha.

As far as booze, I'm going to be 6 months sober next week. PFS or not, that is a massive accomplishment. Before PFS, I was scared I was slowly going to drink myself to death and there was nothing I could do to stop myself. Alcohol addiction runs in my family and eventually it found its way to me as well. Pretty scary stuff because I was only 23 when I realized I had a problem. So in a sense, PFS is actually saving my life. I don't really have a desire to pick up the bottle again after all this is a memory.

Anyways, thanks for the encouragement, Hope you're doing well man.

[Cdsnuts]

Sorry CD, I’m not understanding correctly. Yes to which part?

The whole protocol is meant to detox your system from anything that shouldn't be there in the first place. If you feel that something is doing this too much or too forceful, then yes, you can back down on those supps. You are going to want to get heavy metals out of your system so you can either do it gradually,ei, the protocol, or you can slow it down by stopping those supps that are making you detox too much too fast.

[Turnover25]

The whole protocol is meant to detox your system from anything that shouldn't be there in the first place. If you feel that something is doing this too much or too forceful, then yes, you can back down on those supps. You are going to want to get heavy metals out of your system so you can either do it gradually,ei, the protocol, or you can slow it down by stopping those supps that are making you detox too much too fast.

Thanks CD. So if I’m understanding, the protocol in itself will cleanse your body of toxins, including heavy metals due to diet, exercise, healthy living, etc.

Also, wanted your input on something. A few years back I developed a stomach issue where I could no longer keep food down, I would eat, then it would make its way back up my esophagus and I would have to puke it out. Almost like the flap that separates my stomach and esophagus became paralyzed. No doctors could figure out why that happened and eventually I got diagnosed with GERD and I had a Nissen surgery where they wrapped my esophagus so nothing (including burps) can come up. Before all that they put me on PPI’s for about 2 years, which I’m now understanding can have damaging effects with how your body absorbs nutrients, etc. My suspicion is I had an undiagnosed gluten allergy, or constant use of alcohol, energy drinks, preworkout, pharmaceuticals, etc. damaged my stomach. Just wondering if you think I should make any slight adjustments to focus on gut health or if you’ve heard similar experiences, and also just curious about what you think about it. I’ve suspected slightly that it had something to do with how bad Fin effected me. I had wicked food intolerances back when I crashed but they seem to have improved. I currently drink bone broth, limit fruits, I don’t eat nuts because they give me issues, I don’t really eat grains and I’m gonna cut out sugar. Also adding L-glutamine soon.

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks CD. So if I’m understanding, the protocol in itself will cleanse your body of toxins, including heavy metals due to diet, exercise, healthy living, etc.

Also, wanted your input on something. A few years back I developed a stomach issue where I could no longer keep food down, I would eat, then it would make its way back up my esophagus and I would have to puke it out. Almost like the flap that separates my stomach and esophagus became paralyzed. No doctors could figure out why that happened and eventually I got diagnosed with GERD and I had a Nissen surgery where they wrapped my esophagus so nothing (including burps) can come up. Before all that they put me on PPI’s for about 2 years, which I’m now understanding can have damaging effects with how your body absorbs nutrients, etc. My suspicion is I had an undiagnosed gluten allergy, or constant use of alcohol, energy drinks, preworkout, pharmaceuticals, etc. damaged my stomach. Just wondering if you think I should make any slight adjustments to focus on gut health or if you’ve heard similar experiences, and also just curious about what you think about it. I’ve suspected slightly that it had something to do with how bad Fin effected me. I had wicked food intolerances back when I crashed but they seem to have improved. I currently drink bone broth, limit fruits, I don’t eat nuts because they give me issues, I don’t really eat grains and I’m gonna cut out sugar. Also adding L-glutamine soon.

PPI's (Proton Pump Inhibitors) are known for leaching minerals from the system, especially magnesium, which is a recipe for disaster. You can include more gut related items if you wish as long as you're maintaining what is outlined for you already. That being said, if you get and stay on the protocol 100% you should have no issue meeting your bodies needs. I say that with a grain of salt because everyone is slightly different, although the big picture stays the same, the shades of the picture may have to be adjusted for the individual.

Again, that being said, the protocol is pretty inclusive when it comes to the vibrant health of each guy. From what you're telling me you sound like you're on the right path.

[Turnover25]

Hey guys, haven't updated in a while. The past month has been a wild ride for me. I took methylfolate not knowing what methylated vitamins were and crashed myself back to ground zero, this crash mimicked my PFS crash identically but was about 5 times more intense and I landed in the ER room. Upon further research I realized I tanked my potassium and B12 levels. Nightmare to say the least. Loaded myself up on bananas, coconut water and B12 pills and had about a 2 hour window where I cured myself, and about 3 days where I felt great, now I'm back to where I was before. I'm thinking all this shit has something to do with my B vitamins and Potassium (or electrolytes in general). I've drank nothing but water for 7 months, can't say I think thats good for my electrolytes. I've started implementing coconut water after workouts and I feel way better. PFS is one tricky bitch, not sure what it did to my vitamin levels or if it may have caused a deficiency but hey. I switched up my diet to include more zinc, B vitamins, calcium and potassium and I am seeing a lot better results than before. My libido is out of this god damn world, I've PMO'd at least 10 times the past month. Can't say I'm proud of it.. pretty disappointing but it's nice to actually WANT sex. The past month, after my crash from hell I completely fell off the protocol for about 2 weeks, PMO, gluten, no herbs, no backloading, not as much working out. I've started back up again and I'm feeling fine for how bad I fell off. But my crash made me realize it could be WAY FUCKING WORSE. I completely forgot about how bad PFS was in the early days. Some advice for those of you who forgot just as I did, be thankful you've made the progress you've made. I had to go through it all again and it was a fucking disaster. But yeah, I don't like to post percentages cuz I go up and down a lot, but I've noticed that since switching my diet, I have more memories popping up, more at my disposal and "unlocking". A break in the clouds as CD says.

But a definitely interesting experience for sure. What happened this time was after I took methylfolate, it took about 4 days for a potassium deficiency to hit me. This resulted in rapid heart racing/palpitations out of nowhere, panic attack, eye floaters, dizzy, zero brain-dick connection, extreme water retention in face/fat face, vivid light, DPDR, dry mouth, dream-like vision, all the other fun stuff from PFS crash. This makes me wonder that somehow fin depletes your electrolytes/vitamins, leading to your body becoming deficient and ending with what we have now. I now believe that if your body had some sort of damage, taking fin may exasperate the issue even further. This would make sense in my case because I was low on B vitamins when I took fin from drinking and PPI use. Could explain why I respond so well to vitamin B, magnesium and potassium. I say this because my crash from methylfolate was identical to fin. Things seem to be the same for all guys on this site but slight specific alterations help different individuals. I think in my case personally my issues are less hormonal and more about giving my body what it needs. Regardless, the protocol will fix that, albeit slowly.

Word of advice. If you take methylated vitamins, do your research first. B12, B9 (folate) and potassium work in tandem. Taking B12 will make your body produce red blood cells quicker, it needs B9 and Potassium to do this, like firewood to a fire. It will deplete your resources if not done correctly, then you may end up like this guy did haha. Worst experience of my entire life. Felt like I was crawling out of my skin or on fire.

[Turnover25]

Cdsnuts what's the concensus on supplementing zinc in small doses? I've read it is a 5ARI but can't imagine it'd have that much of an effect in that aspect? I did a nutritional deficiency test that showed I was moderately deficient in zinc and I have some concerns about absorption from food.

[Turnover25]

Update: 7 months sober as of yesterday. Never thought I'd be able to say that, have no desire to ever pick up drinking again even after recovery either.

Long-term memory is starting to come back slowly, I go back and forth between demented dumbass to remembering my first day of the 3rd grade. Working memory/perception of where I am and what day/time it is is starting to recover slowly also I believe.

I still have visual issues like 2D/shiny vision at times, palinopsia (Visual tracers), eye floaters, visual snow, and at times while driving I space out like I'm high on weed. Also other sexual stuff. These things seem to fluctuate back and forth just as my memory does. I'm beginning to actually see real improvement now, took about a year post fin, and 7 months of protocol. But I say that sparingly because one day I'm great then the next I'm in the depths again.

I'll eventually post my specific protocol just like some other users did, basically I do everything besides breathing exercises (they cause me bad anxiety), I meditate instead, but anxiety isn't really one of my symptoms anymore anyways. I might start the breathing exercises again soon and see how they feel. I also seem to respond much better to traditional cardio instead of HIIT, I walk up-hill for about a mile every day or so, and still do HIIT. But I notice my thoughts clear a bit after running/speed walking. I also stopped carb backloading for now since my thoughts seem to be more at my disposal when I start my day with carbs instead of backloading. I may pick it up again soon. I avoid gluten but don't get too hard on myself if I consume it, doesn't really seem to bother me, but nothing I eat besides oatmeal would contain it anyway. Diet, cold showers, herbs, meditation, avoiding xenoestrogens, sunlight (when it's available, Michigan weather is a bitch), sleep, vitamins, heavy lifting/exercise, skin brushing, complete sober lifestyle and avoiding PMO are all spot on for me.

[Turnover25]

Graduated college today, boys. That was a bitch and a half accomplishing while dealing with all this neurological BS, but it’s done. Keep pushing!

[DKnighten]

Graduated college today, boys. That was a bitch and a half accomplishing while dealing with all this neurological BS, but it’s done. Keep pushing!

Congratulations. Huge accomplishment.

[DefRecover]

Congrats T25! You certainly are a young buck.... Lots to look forward to!

[Turnover25]

Congratulations. Huge accomplishment.

Thank you man.

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Congrats T25! You certainly are a young buck.... Lots to look forward to!

Yep! 26, hopefully that’s still what most consider young haha.

[xxaleksi]

Graduated college today, boys. That was a bitch and a half accomplishing while dealing with all this neurological BS, but it’s done. Keep pushing!

Great job dude!

[Turnover25]

Great job dude!

Thanks man!

[Turnover25]

“Suddenly, it all made sense. As an integrative medicine doctor in posh Marin County, Calif., I never understood how my patients – all health nuts, eating vegan diets or juicing, working out with personal trainers or taking supplements, and sleeping eight hours a night – could be some of the sickest people I've ever met. But after my research, I had an epiphany: My patients were sick because they were in chronic repetitive stress response. No amount of kale can counterbalance the poisonous effects of high doses of cortisol and epinephrine on every cell. Their bodies had lost the ability to self-repair.”

Interesting paragraph from an article I am reading. First and foremost, manage your stress my dudes. Do the breathing exercises, meditate, practice smiling at least once every few hours. Practice mindfulness. Keep your body out of that state of stress response.

[Smithy]

Congrats on graduating college mate. Don't know how you did it, I'm struggling in my first year in college with the sides. Fair play :cool:

[Cdsnuts]

Congrats Turnover. Big accomplishment, but the biggest accomplishment is going to be regaining your health. Once that is done, you're going to feel like you can conquer anything. Keep at it man.

[Turnover25]

Congrats Turnover. Big accomplishment, but the biggest accomplishment is going to be regaining your health. Once that is done, you're going to feel like you can conquer anything. Keep at it man.

Thanks man, I definitely agree. I’ll keep at it.

[Turnover25]

Congrats on graduating college mate. Don't know how you did it, I'm struggling in my first year in college with the sides. Fair play :cool:

Thanks man. It was extremely challenging to say the least. Fogginess, inability to handle stress, anxiety, low motivation, low stress tolerance/information overload, and hard time looking at laptop screens all played a part in making it a tough road. The key is to keep pushing, it'll be uncomfortable but you CAN get it done. I study finance so I had to figure out a lot of math, managing portfolios, market behavior, excel spreadsheets, all sorts of complex stuff. Just goes to show that you can still accomplish whatever you want. And after you're healed, you'll look back and be proud you didn't give up. Keep on pushing through man!

[Turnover25]

Hey guys, looking for some input, Cdsnuts really you specifically, but anyone with some advice would be appreciated.

So it's been about 2 months since my methylfolate incident, I don't want to alarm anyone but I am beginning to think I may have crashed again. Back in March I landed in the ER and my best guess is that I tanked my potassium. I fixed my initial crash with some potassium but it is only temporary, and I've been fighting off my crash symptoms for 2 straight months, it seems my electrolytes are just way screwed up. I have developed insomnia, racing heart, face wrinkles, and just a deep deep dark depression, especially when I wake up. I can fend it off if I take sodium and potassium, then it fades and I sink back into it. My brain fog is becoming utter confusion, and my derealization is at a weird point where I don't really recognize my parents. I read a lot of guys crashes that went exactly like how its going for me now, which is why I think PFS has some effect on electrolytes. I read that issues with the adrenal glands can cause the body to store sodium and dump potassium, and vice versa. Interesting stuff to say the least.

I want to point out that I am NOT freaking out. There could be many different things going on, and maybe I'll get a better understanding of PFS through all this that I can help people with in the future. I'm getting some tests done soon to see if I have a gene mutation called MTHFR, I did a nutritional deficiency test that showed I was highly deficient in vitamin B9 (folate), so that might explain why I'm deficient and my experience with methylfolate. Initially, I felt AMAZING then I crashed because I didn't take it correctly.

It's really weird, since 2 months ago I can't handle foods with methylfolate in them (veggies) and in order to eat them I need to supplement potassium. I don't want to keep doing this for obvious reasons. But the whole experience has made the protocol kind of a bitch, foods are harsh for me, and also exercise is causing insomnia. Definitely a weird spot to be in for sure, but my hope for this post is to be able to look back at it a year from now and be glad its over, or to help others in the future. If you're going to supplement things off of the protocol, run it through the forum first. Methylfolate is just a form a vitamin B9, I didn't know the difference, but a quick post about it would have probably saved me the experience because others knew that methylated vitamins can be harsh. You don't want to get crash symptoms from something other than fin, because then you've stepped into uncharted territory, so to speak.

Anyways, I guess theres nothing I can do at this point besides keep on the protocol? I just did some breathing exercises and I'm gonna take a cold shower and try and sleep, probably just have to ride this out. I was thinking of maybe trying a 4 day wateriest but if there is an issue with low electrolytes I'm worried that I'd do more damage. Its been a rollercoaster of ups and downs for 2 months so maybe downswings? I noticed I have more of my memory back. The only thing is it doesn't FEEL like downswings. The ups and downs really just come when I take replenish electrolytes or whatever. If any recovered guys have any input about their ups and downs that may be helpful. Is it even possible that I'm experiencing a PFS type crash, or do you think it's a separate issue that'll resolve itself?

Keep pushing boys!


By the way I know my last 2 updates are contradicting, that’s honestly how crazy I’m fluctuating right now. Hopefully a good sign.

[Cdsnuts]

Hey guys, looking for some input, Cdsnuts really you specifically, but anyone with some advice would be appreciated.

So it's been about 2 months since my methylfolate incident, I don't want to alarm anyone but I am beginning to think I may have crashed again. Back in March I landed in the ER and my best guess is that I tanked my potassium. I fixed my initial crash with some potassium but it is only temporary, and I've been fighting off my crash symptoms for 2 straight months, it seems my electrolytes are just way screwed up. I have developed insomnia, racing heart, face wrinkles, and just a deep deep dark depression, especially when I wake up. I can fend it off if I take sodium and potassium, then it fades and I sink back into it. My brain fog is becoming utter confusion, and my derealization is at a weird point where I don't really recognize my parents. I read a lot of guys crashes that went exactly like how its going for me now, which is why I think PFS has some effect on electrolytes. I read that issues with the adrenal glands can cause the body to store sodium and dump potassium, and vice versa. Interesting stuff to say the least.

I want to point out that I am NOT freaking out. There could be many different things going on, and maybe I'll get a better understanding of PFS through all this that I can help people with in the future. I'm getting some tests done soon to see if I have a gene mutation called MTHFR, I did a nutritional deficiency test that showed I was highly deficient in vitamin B9 (folate), so that might explain why I'm deficient and my experience with methylfolate. Initially, I felt AMAZING then I crashed because I didn't take it correctly.

It's really weird, since 2 months ago I can't handle foods with methylfolate in them (veggies) and in order to eat them I need to supplement potassium. I don't want to keep doing this for obvious reasons. But the whole experience has made the protocol kind of a bitch, foods are harsh for me, and also exercise is causing insomnia. Definitely a weird spot to be in for sure, but my hope for this post is to be able to look back at it a year from now and be glad its over, or to help others in the future. If you're going to supplement things off of the protocol, run it through the forum first. Methylfolate is just a form a vitamin B9, I didn't know the difference, but a quick post about it would have probably saved me the experience because others knew that methylated vitamins can be harsh. You don't want to get crash symptoms from something other than fin, because then you've stepped into uncharted territory, so to speak.

Anyways, I guess theres nothing I can do at this point besides keep on the protocol? I just did some breathing exercises and I'm gonna take a cold shower and try and sleep, probably just have to ride this out. I was thinking of maybe trying a 4 day wateriest but if there is an issue with low electrolytes I'm worried that I'd do more damage. Its been a rollercoaster of ups and downs for 2 months so maybe downswings? I noticed I have more of my memory back. The only thing is it doesn't FEEL like downswings. The ups and downs really just come when I take replenish electrolytes or whatever. If any recovered guys have any input about their ups and downs that may be helpful. Is it even possible that I'm experiencing a PFS type crash, or do you think it's a separate issue that'll resolve itself?

Keep pushing boys!


By the way I know my last 2 updates are contradicting, that’s honestly how crazy I’m fluctuating right now. Hopefully a good sign.

I think given the nature of what you have going on, you should do a two week juice feast. Stop EVERYTHING and juice. Then after two weeks start back up on the protocol. I think you need a mini jump start. Once back on the protocol, follow it 100%. No adding things in or swapping things out, follow exactly what is laid out for you.

Unfortunately I've seen this several times where some one will be doing well and then they decide to add another type of supplement or change something up and they ALWAYS regret it.

Simply stick to the program.

[Turnover25]

I think given the nature of what you have going on, you should do a two week juice feast. Stop EVERYTHING and juice. Then after two weeks start back up on the protocol. I think you need a mini jump start. Once back on the protocol, follow it 100%. No adding things in or swapping things out, follow exactly what is laid out for you.

Unfortunately I've seen this several times where some one will be doing well and then they decide to add another type of supplement or change something up and they ALWAYS regret it.

Simply stick to the program.

Yeah I think so too. Thanks for the input boss-man. I actually felt fantastic today, best I’ve felt in a very long time. Felt very clear and present, even happy honestly. I’ll see how I’m feeling in the next couple weeks, if things are still weird I’ll cleanse it out. But I can definitely tell something is “changing” lately.

Started the breathing exercises again last night, this like my 4th attempt, I’ve binned them during college because they gave me panic attacks and I couldn’t study well, but now that I’m done with school I’m going to push through them and see how my body adjusts, I want to keep them. I read further into them and learned about the large detox process that takes place with oxidation so I’m gonna ride it out. I just did my 2nd round today and I can’t believe how calming they are. That final breath in after you’ve let it out for a while is pure bliss.

[Cdsnuts]

Yeah I think so too. Thanks for the input boss-man. I actually felt fantastic today, best I’ve felt in a very long time. Felt very clear and present, even happy honestly. I’ll see how I’m feeling in the next couple weeks, if things are still weird I’ll cleanse it out. But I can definitely tell something is “changing” lately.

Started the breathing exercises again last night, this like my 4th attempt, I’ve binned them during college because they gave me panic attacks and I couldn’t study well, but now that I’m done with school I’m going to push through them and see how my body adjusts, I want to keep them. I read further into them and learned about the large detox process that takes place with oxidation so I’m gonna ride it out. I just did my 2nd round today and I can’t believe how calming they are. That final breath in after you’ve let it out for a while is pure bliss.

If you want to take this to the next level, do your beathing exercises after you taken a hit or two of some good MJ. You'll feel bliss unlike anything you've felt before. And yes, there can be a very stressful, anxiety ridden mental detox process after you do these exercises. Sometimes they can be TOO intense. If that's the case, stop and go for a couple mile walk. If you have alot pushed down their you may have to take several days, sometimes weeks to "unbury" what is blocked down there.

When I had my first real release, I cried like baby for a good ten minutes. Not just cried, fucking balled like a child having a tantrum. After it was over, I was exhausted, physically and mentally, but I could feel in my core that I was going in the right direction. You'll know, believe me, you'll feel it in your soul.

Keep going man. You're moving along just fine. Just make sure you're alone when you have these releases......lol

[Turnover25]

If you want to take this to the next level, do your beathing exercises after you taken a hit or two of some good MJ. You'll feel bliss unlike anything you've felt before. And yes, there can be a very stressful, anxiety ridden mental detox process after you do these exercises. Sometimes they can be TOO intense. If that's the case, stop and go for a couple mile walk. If you have alot pushed down their you may have to take several days, sometimes weeks to "unbury" what is blocked down there.

When I had my first real release, I cried like baby for a good ten minutes. Not just cried, fucking balled like a child having a tantrum. After it was over, I was exhausted, physically and mentally, but I could feel in my core that I was going in the right direction. You'll know, believe me, you'll feel it in your soul.

Keep going man. You're moving along just fine. Just make sure you're alone when you have these releases......lol

I cried like a bitch last night for no reason, come to think it was the first time I’ve done breathing exercises in months, lol. I never cry, I lack emotion. Even before this I never cried much. Funny, that must have been it haha.

By the way, a few weeks ago I was feeling amazing and stumbled on propeciahelp, it’s funny browsing that site when you feel “normal” as opposed to when you crash. Night and day difference. But I read some of your old posts, it’s funny the difference in your tone of voice. Back in like 2009 you could tell you were scared and desperate, asking other sufferers if they feel this or that. The comparison to then and now is crazy. Also, that place is a complete shit hole. I never visited it again after finding swole source, I even forgot this whole thing was because finesteride honestly, it’s more like “I feel messed up so I need to do this stuff in order to feel better” while a bunch of other people cheer you on, as opposed to people crying about how their life is over. What a mess.

Ok end rant haha

[Cdsnuts]

I cried like a bitch last night for no reason, come to think it was the first time I’ve done breathing exercises in months, lol. I never cry, I lack emotion. Even before this I never cried much. Funny, that must have been it haha.

By the way, a few weeks ago I was feeling amazing and stumbled on propeciahelp, it’s funny browsing that site when you feel “normal” as opposed to when you crash. Night and day difference. But I read some of your old posts, it’s funny the difference in your tone of voice. Back in like 2009 you could tell you were scared and desperate, asking other sufferers if they feel this or that. The comparison to then and now is crazy. Also, that place is a complete shit hole. I never visited it again after finding swole source, I even forgot this whole thing was because finesteride honestly, it’s more like “I feel messed up so I need to do this stuff in order to feel better” while a bunch of other people cheer you on, as opposed to people crying about how their life is over. What a mess.

Ok end rant haha

I WAS scared and desperate, like we all were. I had no blue print, no guidance.....nothing. I know it's hard, but if everyone would just try it, they would get a taste of results and they would do it. But they don't They demonize me and put down some thing that works beyond a shadow of a doubt, but for some reason doesn't fit their narrative.

I'm glad you went back and read those posts. They are what led us here. It was simply a natural progression for all to see. It was very cathartic to me to write about my experiences. It helped me. And I thought if it would help others, win win. Let's face it, we are all doing things out of self interest (whether we like to admit it or not) Writing everything down really helped me cope, and it ended up turning into the "protocol." I had no interest in writing a website before this. None whatsoever. It just naturally happened.

You got this bro. You just gotta keep going.

[Turnover25]

Cdsnuts would Cheerios be a gluten free grain good for carb backloading? I know it’s not paleo but since adding them to my diet I feel surprisingly good, especially in the brain fog department. I think it’s the vitamins. Not the greatest food to eat but not the worst either.

[Cdsnuts]

Cdsnuts would Cheerios be a gluten free grain good for carb backloading? I know it’s not paleo but since adding them to my diet I feel surprisingly good, especially in the brain fog department. I think it’s the vitamins. Not the greatest food to eat but not the worst either.

I really doubt it's the vitamins in cheerios as much as it is the carbs. Those cereals really don't have too many vitamins to speak of.

When it comes to backloading, as long as it's gluten free and you don't get any negative responses from it, then sure, have at it.

[Turnover25]

I really doubt it's the vitamins in cheerios as much as it is the carbs. Those cereals really don't have too many vitamins to speak of.

When it comes to backloading, as long as it's gluten free and you don't get any negative responses from it, then sure, have at it.

Awesome 🤙

[Turnover25]

Got my Ancestry DNA results back, turns out I am MTHFR C677T Homozygous, which means my body doesn't metabolize folate. Well, it's extremely reduced anyway. That makes sense how methyl-folate made me feel so good until it crashed me, I guess that's how "normal" people feel all the time?

I also am Homozygous COMT V158M, and Homozygous COMT H62H, I don't know anything about those mutations, but apparently taking methylated vitamins with those mutations will enter you into a severe shit storm. None of these mutations are good.


Quote about COMT V158M (The "worrier" mutation)-

"COMT V158M +/+ – These individuals have the slowest COMT system, therefore they have the highest levels of dopamine at a steady, resting state. They are going to have higher performance and more brain function in low stress states, but will lose brain function as the number of stressors increases."

Reducing stress is going to be my name of the game here from now on, no more constant worry about PFS, because apparently this may be contributing harshly to my brain fog. Funny how it has seemed to lift a little bit now that school is over.

[Turnover25]

After a 6 year struggle with DPDR on an almost permanent basis, I figured out the cause and fixed it. : Depersonalization (https://www.reddit.com/r/Depersonalization/comments/c9y60c/after_a_6_year_struggle_with_dpdr_on_an_almost/)

Interesting and great read about a guy who suffered brain fog, depersonalization/derealization, seeing life through "glass", memory issues and anxiety, triggered after one morning of waking up with a sinus infection, lasted 6 years. He also began suffering from IBS, low sex drive, insomnia. Not sure if there is a connection, but my "PFS" began with a sinus infection, also you see this in CFS sufferers.

He talked about what eventually cured him was his doctor "prescribing" him breathing exercises, his anxiety was causing him to experience something called "unconscious hyperventilation" where his breaths became short and fast with irregular rhythm. The condition was called Hypercapnia, causes dizziness, brain fog, DP/DR, yada yada, but can be triggered from a traumatic experience/stress. Frequent exposure to short, irregular, anxious breaths eventually can lead to CO2 toxicity. Messing with vision, cognitive function, all sorts of things. I think a ton of PFS sufferers, especially on forums like PH look so long for a diagnosis of what is wrong with their bodies where a lot of the symptoms are arising from things like anxiety and short/shitty breaths.

I frequently see things like breathing exercises, avoiding pesticides/chemicals and eating organic when looking through recovery stories of people that have never touched fin, but become chronically ill with unexplainable illnesses. I'm a firm believer that a lot of PFS symptoms are caused by nothing but stress and panic, as opposed to damaged 5-ar, especially mental symptoms. If you're not improving but doing everything on the protocol, maybe make more of an emphasis of doing breathing exercises, picking up fun hobbies that allow your mind to enjoy itself, and meditate to find a place where your mind can relax and rest. Constant worry about PFS and symptom checking is going to keep you in this hell longer I believe.

[mcbbould]

What breathing exercises do you recommend? I know CD repeats the wim hof method on his site. Anything else

[Turnover25]

What breathing exercises do you recommend? I know CD repeats the wim hof method on his site. Anything else

I do the wim hof, there's a video on youtube that I follow. Do you experience dimmed vision at night time? Like someone turned down the lights. I've messed around with a lot of B vitamins in the last few months and my brain fog and vision issues has something to do with B vitamins because I've alleviated issues then made them worse then better, can't put my finger on it exactly. But I'm trying to figure out if I am dealing with strictly PFS or something else entirely.

[Cdsnuts]

I do the wim hof, there's a video on youtube that I follow. Do you experience dimmed vision at night time? Like someone turned down the lights. I've messed around with a lot of B vitamins in the last few months and my brain fog and vision issues has something to do with B vitamins because I've alleviated issues then made them worse then better, can't put my finger on it exactly. But I'm trying to figure out if I am dealing with strictly PFS or something else entirely.

I can say with certainty that Gaba plays a role in vision. I'm not sure of the direct mechanism, but pfs guys have disrupted gaba channels due to 5ar inhibition. This alone will effect your site and cause things to seem "dim"

[Turnover25]

I can say with certainty that Gaba plays a role in vision. I'm not sure of the direct mechanism, but pfs guys have disrupted gaba channels due to 5ar inhibition. This alone will effect your site and cause things to seem "dim"

Yeah man my vision is honestly the most concerning thing. Everything is really dim, and sometimes really shiny and 2-dimensional. I haven’t seen any other guys talk about that which is what concerns me.

[Cdsnuts]

What breathing exercises do you recommend? I know CD repeats the wim hof method on his site. Anything else

Wim's method is great for increasing adrenaline and getting you up and going when you feel like doing nothing of the sort.

There is another method, I believe it's called the 8,7,4 Method, where you breath in as deep as possible for four seconds, hold for 7 seconds, and exhale for 8 seconds. Do this four or five times and you will feel yourself calm down immensely. They both have their place.

[Comewhatmay]

There is another method, I believe it's called the 8,7,4 Method, where you breath in as deep as possible for four seconds, hold for 7 seconds, and exhale for 8 seconds. Do this four or five times and you will feel yourself calm down immensely. They both have their place.

Recently my sleep has taken a slight turn for the worse and I'm able to sleep around 4-5hrs but then I can't go back again due to my constant pounding heartrate. Always was a doubter of the benefits of deep breathing but gave this a go and to my surprise 20 minutes later I was asleep. First of many for me now

[Cdsnuts]

Recently my sleep has taken a slight turn for the worse and I'm able to sleep around 4-5hrs but then I can't go back again due to my constant pounding heartrate. Always was a doubter of the benefits of deep breathing but gave this a go and to my surprise 20 minutes later I was asleep. First of many for me now

Which method, 4,7,8 or Whim? I actually have to add 478 to the website.

[Comewhatmay]

Which method, 4,7,8 or Whim? I actually have to add 478 to the website.

It was the 4,7,8 method only did it 4 times and after about 2 minutes felt a calmness from within. Tremendous tool

[Cdsnuts]

It was the 4,7,8 method only did it 4 times and after about 2 minutes felt a calmness from within. Tremendous tool

Yes, it is. I'm going to add it to the breath work section of TMO with and explanation of the best times to utilize each one. Glad it is working for you.

[Turnover25]

Decided to take a couple weeks off the herbs. I’ll begin them again in about a week. I’ve noticed in the past couple months, my thoughts and memory are returning. I no longer feel like I’m walking around with dementia or like I’m lost. I have thoughts and a sense of where I am/what day it is and I have good memory again. My vision is still fucked but when you have your thoughts, it makes it less intimidating. Hopefully it stays this way but I’ll probably fluctuate up and down more in the coming future.

I recently added vitamin A and vitamin E, and C about twice a week and saw immediate improvements in cognition. Their fat soluble so don’t overdo them. Also breathing exercises had a direct impact on brain fog. My theory is that CO2 buildup due to anxious breathing has something to do with cognitive decline. I also don’t overdo the breathing because it can cause me DP/DR, surprisingly enough you see this a lot in people who do yoga. Yoga breathing allows you to enter parts of yourself you weren’t able to access before, some call it a kundalini awakening and it can be frightening if you are unaware of it. I’m sure there’s a scientific explanation for it, probably your body being able to access new parts of itself it wasn’t able to before you loaded it with oxygen. I felt like I could sense people’s energy and I sometimes had issues recognizing people I knew forever. Weird stuff.

My thoughts and memory aren’t super fluid yet or anything, but it’s a start. I used to have absolutely zero memories of my life and couldn’t picture things in my head. Now I can remember times I had with my friends, I remember my childhood, I remember the marines, I remember who I am basically. I didn’t use to be able to conversation, now I can tel stories in detail and explain myself how I used to. Also, my recent past few months has given me a gut feeling that your body can recover itself from nearly anything, I truly believe that PFS will heal itself eventually, but everything we are doing is going to speed up that process exponentially. I truly don’t believe any of us will be 30 years down the road thinking “wow I can’t believe I took a hair loss pill and my life is fucked” I guarantee this will be a distant memory by then.

I’ve noticed that progress comes at a snails pace. I’m hoping to be recovered of al symptoms by the time I’m 30, I’m currently 26. But I believe I got hit harder than most with this.

My erections and libido have been pretty solid too. I’ve never cared about that aspect of PFS tho, I’ve always been so slammed with mental sides to care if my dick works. But hey I’ll take it.

Side note: 8 months sober today. Let’s goooo!

[alphacfi]

Nice job man. I have been doing the wim hof every day for 3 weeks now. It has definitely helped calm things down. When I start to feel the symptoms creep and I am by myself I can do 4 or 5 rounds of breathing and it eradicates the symptoms for a while.

[Turnover25]

Nice job man. I have been doing the wim hof every day for 3 weeks now. It has definitely helped calm things down. When I start to feel the symptoms creep and I am by myself I can do 4 or 5 rounds of breathing and it eradicates the symptoms for a while.

Thanks bro. It becomes addicting, I usually start my day with 1 round and then do about 3 at night.

[Cdsnuts]

There is definitely a "release" that happens when you start doing the WHM. I don't think it's been talked about much here, but it can be scary if you're not expecting it. Scientifically, I'm not sure how to explain it. But when you start doing this, you bring up blocked energy and stiffeld emotions that have been buried for god knows how long. When breathing, you bring them to the surface and they get "processed" This to me, came in the form of balling like a baby. I'm talking uncontrollably crying. I've also cried and laughed at the same time. It was insane. I had no idea why I was crying or what about, but it was like the flood gates opened up and all of these bottled up emotions came to the surface. Afterwords, I felt so calm and peaceful I just sat, and sensed my surroundings. No music, no TV, nothing. I just wanted to feel immersed in the day which had eluded me for so long. It was a beautiful feeling.

[Turnover25]

I’m beginning to think that my vision/dizziness is a different symptom than my brain fog, recently I’ve had more and more occurrences where my thoughts and memories return but I’ll be dizzy and my vision will be all glossy, especially after taking vitamins or doing HIIT. But when I have my thoughts available, the sensation is more like when you’re a kid and do a bunch of spins and become dizzy. It’s much more bearable when my thoughts are flowing. Put the 2 together where I have dementia type brain fog with zero memory or working memory, and dizzy vision, it creates quite a nasty fucking combo. I spent over a year like that. The dizziness is kinda like there’s an anchor making my thoughts and vision heavy and sludgy. My vision isn’t always messed up either, but it gets aggravated by different things. But yeah I believe they are 2 different symptoms, I used to think everyone’s brain fog was like this but I think it’s just the combination of the 2 for me.

xxaleksi didn’t you have the same vision/dizziness issue after exercise before your first pro hormone cycle?

Also forgot to mention in last update, but I’ve started dreaming again.

[Cdsnuts]

I’m beginning to think that my vision/dizziness is a different symptom than my brain fog, recently I’ve had more and more occurrences where my thoughts and memories return but I’ll be dizzy and my vision will be all glossy, especially after taking vitamins or doing HIIT. But when I have my thoughts available, the sensation is more like when you’re a kid and do a bunch of spins and become dizzy. It’s much more bearable when my thoughts are flowing. Put the 2 together where I have dementia type brain fog with zero memory or working memory, and dizzy vision, it creates quite a nasty fucking combo. I spent over a year like that. The dizziness is kinda like there’s an anchor making my thoughts and vision heavy and sludgy. My vision isn’t always messed up either, but it gets aggravated by different things. But yeah I believe they are 2 different symptoms, I used to think everyone’s brain fog was like this but I think it’s just the combination of the 2 for me.

xxaleksi didn’t you have the same vision/dizziness issue after exercise before your first pro hormone cycle?

Also forgot to mention in last update, but I’ve started dreaming again.

Something I learned through this through personal experience and research, is that Gaba is very, very closely related to sight somehow. This is where our vision problems come from because our gaba channels were fried. As you heal, and the brain fog becomes less and less, you'll one day realize how bright and clear everything is. It's all connected.

[Turnover25]

Something I learned through this through personal experience and research, is that Gaba is very, very closely related to sight somehow. This is where our vision problems come from because our gaba channels were fried. As you heal, and the brain fog becomes less and less, you'll one day realize how bright and clear everything is. It's all connected.

What led you to make the consensus on GABA and vision? Was it like a specific time you supplemented and found out it had an affect? I ask because I've slowly and sometimes painfully learned what certain things to do the body, certain foods, certain vitamins, etc. affect me in different ways. I think everyone eventually sculpts their own specific plan that fits their needs while using the protocol as a foundation, which takes time, trial and error.

Neurotransmitters and all that is pretty complicated stuff, which makes me wonder what kind of trial and error you had to endure to figure that out. I haven't learned much about all that stuff so I'm glad there's guys here before me that understand how this stuff works more than I do haha.

[Cdsnuts]

What led you to make the consensus on GABA and vision? Was it like a specific time you supplemented and found out it had an affect? I ask because I've slowly and sometimes painfully learned what certain things to do the body, certain foods, certain vitamins, etc. affect me in different ways. I think everyone eventually sculpts their own specific plan that fits their needs while using the protocol as a foundation, which takes time, trial and error.

Neurotransmitters and all that is pretty complicated stuff, which makes me wonder what kind of trial and error you had to endure to figure that out. I haven't learned much about all that stuff so I'm glad there's guys here before me that understand how this stuff works more than I do haha.

Mainly through my own struggles. I would notice that when my brain was really off, so would my vision. So I did some research and sure enough Gaba is connected to sight

[mcbbould]

I know it’s frowned upon to talk about Phelp here, but there was a young man that recently recovered from neurological symptoms, primarily visual (I’m just like you Turn, mainly plagued with neuro symptoms - fishbowl feeling, head pressure, eye focus issues, etc) through bacopa, which impacts GABA receptors. It’s the most scientific explanation you will find and he actually had his CSF tested. You will be impressed with his post if you read it. But anyways CD seems to be right that the visual stuff is all GABA related. Anyways felt obligated to share in case it helps you in any way.

[Cdsnuts]

I know it’s frowned upon to talk about Phelp here, but there was a young man that recently recovered from neurological symptoms, primarily visual (I’m just like you Turn, mainly plagued with neuro symptoms - fishbowl feeling, head pressure, eye focus issues, etc) through bacopa, which impacts GABA receptors. It’s the most scientific explanation you will find and he actually had his CSF tested. You will be impressed with his post if you read it. But anyways CD seems to be right that the visual stuff is all GABA related. Anyways felt obligated to share in case it helps you in any way.

it's one of the recommended herbs in the protocol for this very reason. Add in Gotu Kola and you have a one two punch.

And, it's not frowned upon to talk about anything here. You guys can discuss anything you wish. I just do my best to keep it as positive as it can be given the situation you guys are in. You don't need anymore mental negativity. it serves no purpose other then to keep you down.

This forum is, now, for the most part, to discuss recovery through the method laid out on TMO. That is the point. IF it strays from that from time to time, I just bump it back in the right direction. The recoveries here are here for a reason. Simple as that.

[Turnover25]

I know it’s frowned upon to talk about Phelp here, but there was a young man that recently recovered from neurological symptoms, primarily visual (I’m just like you Turn, mainly plagued with neuro symptoms - fishbowl feeling, head pressure, eye focus issues, etc) through bacopa, which impacts GABA receptors. It’s the most scientific explanation you will find and he actually had his CSF tested. You will be impressed with his post if you read it. But anyways CD seems to be right that the visual stuff is all GABA related. Anyways felt obligated to share in case it helps you in any way.


What's Phelp? And thanks man, I actually have Bacopa but I haven't been using it, I think I'll throw it in my stack from now on and see what happens. By the way, how are you doing lately man? I know the mental stuff is hard to deal with.

Edit: Nvm, Propecia Help. Definitely frowned upon haha. But I'm glad that guy has recovered. If you want to throw me a link, I'd be happy to read his post. But I'm definitely not going to go to that site and fish around for it.

[mcbbould]

Hey man - sorry for the late reply. I’m doing well. Slight improvements here and there, but nothing crazy. I can mentally handle this much better than early on, so grateful for that. Been off fin for a little over two years now. Took 2 pills. I’ve followed the protocol for a few months here and there but I always end up cheating by eating something shitty or having a few cocktails. My neurological stuff is pretty profound, so hopefully it’s fixable. I attribute most of it to neuro-visual issues, but I do have a feelIng it’s more profound. I plan on doing a fast and starting over again, so I will start my own thread once I do. There are some things that happen to your body that are just not fixable (even things that science can actually comprehend), so I’m willing to accept a recovery that isn’t 100%. Even if I get to 80, I’ll be super satisfied. I have no doubt I can get there, but I need to put in the work and listen to my body and make adjustments. Something this complex, won’t be a one size fits all, so I plan to take an approach where I make tweaks If necessary. I don’t think anyone here can say anything is one size fits all with such few data points (that’s just how science works). I’m going to do diet, herbs, etc. but I still haven’t decided on the pro-hormones. Will look to you guys for help when the time comes.

[Hulk Smash]

Hey man - sorry for the late reply. I’m doing well. Slight improvements here and there, but nothing crazy. I can mentally handle this much better than early on, so grateful for that. Been off fin for a little over two years now. Took 2 pills. I’ve followed the protocol for a few months here and there but I always end up cheating by eating something shitty or having a few cocktails. My neurological stuff is pretty profound, so hopefully it’s fixable. I attribute most of it to neuro-visual issues, but I do have a feelIng it’s more profound. I plan on doing a fast and starting over again, so I will start my own thread once I do. There are some things that happen to your body that are just not fixable (even things that science can actually comprehend), so I’m willing to accept a recovery that isn’t 100%. Even if I get to 80, I’ll be super satisfied. I have no doubt I can get there, but I need to put in the work and listen to my body and make adjustments. Something this complex, won’t be a one size fits all, so I plan to take an approach where I make tweaks If necessary. I don’t think anyone here can say anything is one size fits all with such few data points (that’s just how science works). I’m going to do diet, herbs, etc. but I still haven’t decided on the pro-hormones. Will look to you guys for help when the time comes.

What do you think is "just not fixable"?

[mcbbould]

Just accepting that not everything is fixable in life and that’s okay. Just because it was caused by Fin doesn’t all of sudden make it fixable. Lots of people live with eye floaters and tinnitus their whole lives (many difference causes). Some get lucky and it resolves. Deep wrinkles on your face are not going to disappear. I do believe most of my issues will resolve, but I won’t be back 100% to the person I was before this and that’s okay. I can live with that. Still be totally happy as long as the primary stuff resolves (neurological stuff).

Btw - @hulk how are things for you? You seem to be a vet, so absolutely value your opinion and experience.

[Turnover25]

Just accepting that not everything is fixable in life and that’s okay. Just because it was caused by Fin doesn’t all of sudden make it fixable. Lots of people live with eye floaters and tinnitus their whole lives (many difference causes). Some get lucky and it resolves. Deep wrinkles on your face are not going to disappear. I do believe most of my issues will resolve, but I won’t be back 100% to the person I was before this and that’s okay. I can live with that. Still be totally happy as long as the primary stuff resolves (neurological stuff).

Btw - @hulk how are things for you? You seem to be a vet, so absolutely value your opinion and experience.


I don't think the neurological stuff like brain fog/visual issues/eye floaters are permanent, I've had days where my fog lifts and I can think/remember better than I could before fin, then it comes back again. So my theory is that something is more likely "blocking" your bodies ability to work properly, instead of something is broken. If it were broken, it wouldn't be possible for me to slip in and out like I tend to do. Also, guys like japanther recovered fully from full blown brain fog, I'd say I'm recovering, other days I have doubts but today maybe not, also, I had this exact same thing happen years ago when I took an antacid medication called Nexium. Same brain fog/neorogical block and visual issues, only this time it stuck around. Also, anxiety and stress alone can cause the same symptoms, even though I know thats hard to believe. The vision where it looks like you're looking out of a window, eye floaters and weird visual disturbances are things people report with DPDR, which is an anxiety induced phenomenon.

2 years is nothing in the big picture of life, bro. You're not going to be thinking of finasteride 50 years from now, your body is gonna figure it out, just get out of its way and aid it in the healing process. Make sure you're getting your nutrients, sleep and exercise and you'll be good man.

[alphacfi]

Well said. I have days where the neuro stuff lasts all day and I think to myself how will this ever go away. PFS can feel so intrinsically involved with the brain and all its feelings and thoughts and moods and desires. It traps you in a mindset that you can't escape. The best you can do in those moments is meditate and try and think about nothing because thinking about anything will be muddled with your PFS feelings. But then...... All of a sudden.... I will have days where I am completely 100% neuro symptom free. I wake up in the morning and see the sun shining through the window and have beautiful normal thoughts. Ill get out of bed and make breakfast and turn the tv on and think normally. Ill go the whole day making plans and analyze life and situations and have zero blockage and feel happy and excited. Ill think maybe I am free. How could my brain ever go back to that trapped feeling again? I feel totally free. It's a mind boggling thing. Because eventually something triggers it, and it slips back into that PFS trapped mindset and the cycle repeats itself.

So the good news is: My brain does still know what normal is. I have logged many more normal days than bad days the last few months. I would put my worst days up against anyone as far as neurological symptoms. I would love to be able to actually compare with someone because I'm sure I would win. But I am getting to a point where it's slowly being defeated by the good days. My brain wants to be normal. And I'm giving it as much help as I can. Time+TMO=normal

[mcbbould]

Glad to hear it man! Even your objective indicators like vision resolve 100% as well on the good days?

[alphacfi]

When I first crashed a year and a half ago I had double vision and couldn't look at screens or people because I would see multiple images. I couldn't focus on anything. It was terrifying!!! I have completely recovered from that though. I still have eye floaters and my peripheral vision is still a little off. But it is all slowly improving. To answer your question though, no, even on the good days I still have eye floaters. But it's so unimportant to me that I still consider those days 100%.

[Turnover25]

When I first crashed a year and a half ago I had double vision and couldn't look at screens or people because I would see multiple images. I couldn't focus on anything. It was terrifying!!! I have completely recovered from that though. I still have eye floaters and my peripheral vision is still a little off. But it is all slowly improving. To answer your question though, no, even on the good days I still have eye floaters. But it's so unimportant to me that I still consider those days 100%.

A few weeks ago I tried to start taking turmeric for neuroinflammation and I began seeing double, especially while reading. It’s a 5ar inhibitor, not sure if that’s the reason but that’s the only time that’s ever happened to me.

[mcbbould]

Makes sense! I had that in the beginning as well, but that naturally went away with time. I remember it felt completely out of body. Like life was slow motion. That vastly improved simply with time, but I’m still left with eye focusing issues, shaky vision, eye floaters, etc, but you’re point is the same one that I am making. Sometimes we have to accept that we won’t heal 100 percent, and that’s okay. Like you, I can live with some of the more minor stuff. Thanks for sharing!

[Turnover25]

Would anyone here say carb backloading is essential for recovery? I personally feel better eating carbs (oatmeal) in the AM and I haven’t been backloading in a while. Also doing great.

[xxaleksi]

I’m beginning to think that my vision/dizziness is a different symptom than my brain fog, recently I’ve had more and more occurrences where my thoughts and memories return but I’ll be dizzy and my vision will be all glossy, especially after taking vitamins or doing HIIT. But when I have my thoughts available, the sensation is more like when you’re a kid and do a bunch of spins and become dizzy. It’s much more bearable when my thoughts are flowing. Put the 2 together where I have dementia type brain fog with zero memory or working memory, and dizzy vision, it creates quite a nasty fucking combo. I spent over a year like that. The dizziness is kinda like there’s an anchor making my thoughts and vision heavy and sludgy. My vision isn’t always messed up either, but it gets aggravated by different things. But yeah I believe they are 2 different symptoms, I used to think everyone’s brain fog was like this but I think it’s just the combination of the 2 for me.

xxaleksi didn’t you have the same vision/dizziness issue after exercise before your first pro hormone cycle?

Also forgot to mention in last update, but I’ve started dreaming again.

I'm just now seeing this - but yeah, I definitely had that pretty badly. Cold showers made my vision/neuro symptoms worse too. What motivated me was reading how English had similar issues and he just pushed through. They eventually went away for him. Mine got better during my first cycle, and completely went away after the cycle was finished.

[Turnover25]

I'm just now seeing this - but yeah, I definitely had that pretty badly. Cold showers made my vision/neuro symptoms worse too. What motivated me was reading how English had similar issues and he just pushed through. They eventually went away for him. Mine got better during my first cycle, and completely went away after the cycle was finished.

Thanks brother. I am going to jump on my first cycle in a few weeks, hoping that it does some wonders for me. I honestly feel like I would be recovered if this part went away.

[Turnover25]

Hey guys, little update. I have been doing better than ever before, a game changer for me was adding in methylfolate with methyl-B12 and a B complex twice a day, if you're like me and have MTHFR C677T, your body can't process folic acid (vitamin B9) and needs the methylated version. I saw some people who crashed by taking methyls on propeciahelp (I also did) and have studied their stories, every single one of them either only took methylB12 or Methylfolate by itself, this is going to cause you to crash HARD due to them needing to feed off of each other to work properly, eventually leading to nasty deficiencies, especially potassium. There was a study that showed fin users had methylated cells or something, due to my experience and crash back in March, I have a theory that fin causes your body to methylate and this creates massive vitamin or mineral deficiencies, which if it is a functional folate deficiency, or "methyl trap" it's not going to show up on any tests you do because the blood still has a lot of folate, but it was pushed out of the cells due to insufficient B12. If you have PFS, I HIGHLY suggest you test for MTHFR with 23 and me DNA tests, it has really changed my life so far honestly, and if you do have MTHFR and are taking a B complex with folic acid, you're going to make yourself worse. I did that for months and was noticeably worse after taking it, that's gone away with methylfolate. I've lived my whole life with a folate deficiency and never knew. I got methyl trapped back in march because I didn't take methylB12 with methylfolate, in turn I crashed and it was the EXACT same experience as my fin crash, and it stuck around indefinitely until I fixed the deficiencies through supplementation, so maybe there is a link. I also studied a lot of different DNA panels from propeciahelp and noticed most of them had the MTHFR gene mutation of some sort, which effects how your body metabolizes things, such as fin.

Before taking the methylated vitamins, I was dizzy a lot for no reason, that's gone now. I also couldn't handle eating vegetables due to being methyl trapped, and my DPDR was much worse. I've seen a lot of improvements in all of these areas.

Anyways, lately I've been fluctuating up and down, but my ups seem to be much better than my downs. Lately my long term memory has been better than ever before honestly, and I can remember things I did with other people and have conversations again. But this fluctuates and sometimes I nearly have dementia again. But I am functioning a whole lot better than a year ago. I've also been laughing a lot, I've always been the funny guy and it seems that is back for me. My anhedonia is also gone I believe, it still fluctuates but I don't feel as low constantly as I used to. I feel like I have emotions again whether good or bad. I've also been thinking about my future more, which is new, I never did that the past year, I look at pictures of cities and get excited that I could live there someday. Hard to explain, but I wasn't able to emotionally do that like 6 months ago. Also, I look at tattoos a lot lately also which is something I used to do every day, I have a sleeve and I've always wanted another one, so I think once I recover my first move is going to finally start my other sleeve. Definitely frustrating because I definitely don't think putting ink into your body during recovery is going to do you any good. But just the fact that I look at them again and have interest in them again shows that the rays of my long lost personality are starting to shine through the dark clouds of PFS.

Last night, I drank for the first time in 9 months. I decided fuck it, once in a great while isn't going to kill me, and I wanted to see how my body reacted to alcohol. Also, I was at a pool party and decided I didn't want to be sober at this cool party. A year ago, drinking a beer would cause crushing, dark weird anxiety and I would crash immediately, I'm happy to say that my body reacted absolutely great to alcohol and I had the time of my life. Didn't crash at all, and today I don't even feel any anxiety, just have a little headache due to my hangover. I look at this as a huge improvement, I honestly had the time of my life, just taking shots with my friends and laughing and partying, it was a nice release after a year of being strict and putting in work every day.

I'm feeling good about the future guys, I'm probably around 60-75 percent or so, but the final 30 percent is the toughest hurdle for me, and the spacey, high feeling type brain fog doesn't seem to want to go away. I can't imagine a life where I am free from it completely, but hopefully after jumping on my first Andro cycle I see some improvement in that aspect. I still also have light sensitivity and a mental block where it's hard to talk to people and I still forget where I am sometimes, but I feel it's improving.

Just moved into a cool ass house on a lake with my best friend for the summer, I kayak every day and am having a great time, I also have a couple motorcycles in my garage that keep my constantly busy and happy. I think above all, finding things you enjoy to fill your time is the best thing you can do for yourself during all of this. Laughter has honestly been the best medicine for me, alongside everything else I do on the protocol honestly. Which, is tough to follow once you feel decent, but I want to get back to being really strict now that I've had some fun. A little word of advice for someone just starting out on this journey, DO NOT ISOLATE YOURSELF. I spent the first 8 months isolated, it is the single worst thing you can do for yourself during this, get out of your house, find some friends and have fun. My condition is a million times better living with my best friend and doing fun stuff rather than lying my bed and living by myself like I did in the beginning.

Anyways, I'll update later on guys. I'm still not recovered but I feel much better in a lot of different areas. Keep pushing!

[Comewhatmay]

Hey guys, little update. I have been doing better than ever before, a game changer for me was adding in methylfolate with methyl-B12 and a B complex twice a day, if you're like me and have MTHFR C677T, your body can't process folic acid (vitamin B9) and needs the methylated version. I saw some people who crashed by taking methyls on propeciahelp (I also did) and have studied their stories, every single one of them either only took methylB12 or Methylfolate by itself, this is going to cause you to crash HARD due to them needing to feed off of each other to work properly, eventually leading to nasty deficiencies, especially potassium. There was a study that showed fin users had methylated cells or something, due to my experience and crash back in March, I have a theory that fin causes your body to methylate and this creates massive vitamin or mineral deficiencies, which if it is a functional folate deficiency, or "methyl trap" it's not going to show up on any tests you do because the blood still has a lot of folate, but it was pushed out of the cells due to insufficient B12. If you have PFS, I HIGHLY suggest you test for MTHFR with 23 and me DNA tests, it has really changed my life so far honestly, and if you do have MTHFR and are taking a B complex with folic acid, you're going to make yourself worse. I did that for months and was noticeably worse after taking it, that's gone away with methylfolate. I've lived my whole life with a folate deficiency and never knew. I got methyl trapped back in march because I didn't take methylB12 with methylfolate, in turn I crashed and it was the EXACT same experience as my fin crash, and it stuck around indefinitely until I fixed the deficiencies through supplementation, so maybe there is a link. I also studied a lot of different DNA panels from propeciahelp and noticed most of them had the MTHFR gene mutation of some sort, which effects how your body metabolizes things, such as fin.

Before taking the methylated vitamins, I was dizzy a lot for no reason, that's gone now. I also couldn't handle eating vegetables due to being methyl trapped, and my DPDR was much worse. I've seen a lot of improvements in all of these areas.

Anyways, lately I've been fluctuating up and down, but my ups seem to be much better than my downs. Lately my long term memory has been better than ever before honestly, and I can remember things I did with other people and have conversations again. But this fluctuates and sometimes I nearly have dementia again. But I am functioning a whole lot better than a year ago. I've also been laughing a lot, I've always been the funny guy and it seems that is back for me. My anhedonia is also gone I believe, it still fluctuates but I don't feel as low constantly as I used to. I feel like I have emotions again whether good or bad. I've also been thinking about my future more, which is new, I never did that the past year, I look at pictures of cities and get excited that I could live there someday. Hard to explain, but I wasn't able to emotionally do that like 6 months ago. Also, I look at tattoos a lot lately also which is something I used to do every day, I have a sleeve and I've always wanted another one, so I think once I recover my first move is going to finally start my other sleeve. Definitely frustrating because I definitely don't think putting ink into your body during recovery is going to do you any good. But just the fact that I look at them again and have interest in them again shows that the rays of my long lost personality are starting to shine through the dark clouds of PFS.

Last night, I drank for the first time in 9 months. I decided fuck it, once in a great while isn't going to kill me, and I wanted to see how my body reacted to alcohol. Also, I was at a pool party and decided I didn't want to be sober at this cool party. A year ago, drinking a beer would cause crushing, dark weird anxiety and I would crash immediately, I'm happy to say that my body reacted absolutely great to alcohol and I had the time of my life. Didn't crash at all, and today I don't even feel any anxiety, just have a little headache due to my hangover. I look at this as a huge improvement, I honestly had the time of my life, just taking shots with my friends and laughing and partying, it was a nice release after a year of being strict and putting in work every day.

I'm feeling good about the future guys, I'm probably around 60-75 percent or so, but the final 30 percent is the toughest hurdle for me, and the spacey, high feeling type brain fog doesn't seem to want to go away. I can't imagine a life where I am free from it completely, but hopefully after jumping on my first Andro cycle I see some improvement in that aspect. I still also have light sensitivity and a mental block where it's hard to talk to people and I still forget where I am sometimes, but I feel it's improving.

Just moved into a cool ass house on a lake with my best friend for the summer, I kayak every day and am having a great time, I also have a couple motorcycles in my garage that keep my constantly busy and happy. I think above all, finding things you enjoy to fill your time is the best thing you can do for yourself during all of this. Laughter has honestly been the best medicine for me, alongside everything else I do on the protocol honestly. Which, is tough to follow once you feel decent, but I want to get back to being really strict now that I've had some fun. A little word of advice for someone just starting out on this journey, DO NOT ISOLATE YOURSELF. I spent the first 8 months isolated, it is the single worst thing you can do for yourself during this, get out of your house, find some friends and have fun. My condition is a million times better living with my best friend and doing fun stuff rather than lying my bed and living by myself like I did in the beginning.

Anyways, I'll update later on guys. I'm still not recovered but I feel much better in a lot of different areas. Keep pushing!

My man, glad to see you're living up to your name and turning this shit over!. Super inspiring to go through your thread and see the improvements in a relitavely short space of time especially considering how bad things seemed for you in the very beginning. Personally I'm going to redo my water fast for 5-7 days and really attack this thing with all I've got. Personally I've been hit more with physical sides instead of mental ones but all the same the protocol will lead us to the same destination.

Personally although I'm yet to start the protocol officially I'm having up and downswings (down currently) but when I'm up your absolutely right it's tough to remain disciplined in my case food wise as I feel absolutely fine but being not far removed from the crash I don't want to go back to my absolute worst.

Looking at your symptoms I would of assumed you may have been in for the long run but seeing how far you've come so quickly from where you were shows the prior discipline we need to make this shit a thing of the past.

Keep pushing my dude!

[Turnover25]

Update, I’ve been drinking this month. I know it isn’t advised, but fuck man it has made picking up girls a lot easier. If you’ve been following my thread, you saw I was sober for 9 months. That was because alcohol used to mess me up bad. Now, it’s kinda just normal honestly. I’ll get hungover and have a memory lapse like anyone else. But man.... first time I drank I ended up getting with this hot chick from class. Also, there’s another smoking hot girl coming to my house to kayak on Monday. Maybe it’s the testosterone? 🙂😂 if you’re following my thread, I’m not recovered, I still struggle bad. But I’m doing a bit better, slowly. that’s my modest feedback. Keep at it brothers.

[Turnover25]

Comewhatmay Huge inspiration to see your comment brother, I’ve been at this for awhile even though I don’t stuck to it religiously anymore (sadly), I’m glad guys like you can read my shit and realize your life isn’t over. Shit was terrifying in the beginning, and I still have my moments but now I’m a lot tougher than that. I think CD will vouch for this, the longer you go and the better you feel, the tougher it gets to follow the protocol as intensely as the beginning. Don’t listen to the dudes on those other forums. You’ll recover my man. My vision is still messed up and I have some brain fog but man.. it’s like we cracked the code to get better. Just keep at it.

One thing, be happy you got hit with physical sides. No matter what anyone says, you don’t have it that bad if it’s mostly physical. I’d trade with you in a heartbeat.

Also, sadly I’m still in this for the long run. I’m just very optimistic and my memory has returned a bit. But I don’t think I’ll be in that recovery thread for a bit yet. But also, I don’t fuck around with the protocol. I have discipline and it’s my foundation.

[Carni]

What brand of b vitamins and methylfolate do you take? Is there a problem taking them if you don't have that gene?

[Turnover25]

I take solger metafolin and country life methylB12. Also vitamin b complex with vitamin C without b12 or folate. All of those are required for methylation or you can screw yourself up. There’s no problem without the gene but if you don’t have MTHFR then your body can break down folic acid and there’s no need for methylfolate.

[Turnover25]

Small update, huge huge upswing in my general mood and feelings. I was wondering if/when this day would come. I was out grocery shopping and just noticed that I could just like.. feel. It's hard to explain, I just felt that normal summer day/evening feeling where you're content and happy, I could feel the breeze and smell the grass around me, I just felt happy. I haven't felt anything in so long it was almost euphoric. I noticed that my other symptoms are worse at the moment, which is weird, it's like I always trade one thing for one bad thing. I'm going to go outside and work on my motorcycle and just enjoy the upswing while it lasts, I'm sure I'll feel like shit tomorrow since that's usually how it goes for me and posting on this forum haha. But that's it, keep pushing boys.

[DefRecover]

Great stuff, T25! Sounds like you are making great strides. I totally remember those summer highs (though winter here right now). Looking forward to getting them back soon...

I feel like I am making slow but steady progress too. Getting back into the gym again after they re-opened here has been great. Working from home during COVID has really helped me to get more sleep too - even if I am up for an hour or so at night- I can sleep in a bit to catch up.

Keep on keeping on, brother!

[Turnover25]

Great stuff, T25! Sounds like you are making great strides. I totally remember those summer highs (though winter here right now). Looking forward to getting them back soon...

I feel like I am making slow but steady progress too. Getting back into the gym again after they re-opened here has been great. Working from home during COVID has really helped me to get more sleep too - even if I am up for an hour or so at night- I can sleep in a bit to catch up.

Keep on keeping on, brother!

Thanks brother. I’m glad to hear you’re seeing some progress, keep pushing my man!

- - - Updated - - -

Currently doing some squats and deadlifts with a couple of 35 pound dumbbells in the sunshine, feeling awesome! Not necessarily heavy, but doing a little more reps than normal. I feel like I’ve gotten more jacked over quarantine even tho I haven’t been able to lift heavy. What kinds of workouts have you boys been doing while gyms are closed?

[Turnover25]

Maxout777 received my honorable discharge certificate today from the Marines, left active 4 years ago. I'm a free man. I feel an odd sense of a weight lifted off my shoulders that I didn't know was there haha. Bitter sweet for sure.

[Maxout777]

Maxout777 received my honorable discharge certificate today from the Marines, left active 4 years ago. I'm a free man. I feel an odd sense of a weight lifted off my shoulders that I didn't know was there haha. Bitter sweet for sure.

Congratulations my man! I remember that like it was yesterday. Not sure about you, but I didn’t expect to have any feeling except joy when that finally hit and I too felt bittersweet. Kinda like high school, I couldn’t wait to get out but when the day came it set in that those I’d grown up with I might never see again. Crazy how life works - but again man, congrats! And as my dad says (also a vet), “sure beats the other kinda discharge!”

[Jado]

I take solger metafolin and country life methylB12. Also vitamin b complex with vitamin C without b12 or folate. All of those are required for methylation or you can screw yourself up. There’s no problem without the gene but if you don’t have MTHFR then your body can break down folic acid and there’s no need for methylfolate.

Hey bro, I reading your post about MTHFR, and it sounds interesting. I was thinking of getting tested, but I wanted to try taking the methyl vitamins to see if they help my dizziness. I noticed there are several different dosages of the Metafolin and methyl B12. Also, what B complex, with vitamin C, are you taking?

[Cdsnuts]

Hey bro, I reading your post about MTHFR, and it sounds interesting. I was thinking of getting tested, but I wanted to try taking the methyl vitamins to see if they help my dizziness. I noticed there are several different dosages of the Metafolin and methyl B12. Also, what B complex, with vitamin C, are you taking?

Jado, just curious.....how long have you been doing this? And at what percentage would you say you're sticking to it?

[Jado]

Jado, just curious.....how long have you been doing this? And at what percentage would you say you're sticking to it?

I've been at it for around 18 months, and I've seen some great results. I've done two 1-week juice feasts, and one 2-week juice feast, and I'm currently cycling 14 herbs. The only parts of the protocol I don't do is "sunning the boys" (I get plenty of sun, just not on the boys) and pumping (I don't have trouble getting erections). My diet is super clean, I'm lifting, doing yoga and surfing on a regular basis.. I feel like I'm getting close, and all the symptoms that remain are milder than when it first started, just still have this pesky dizziness intermittently. I do have some other symptoms hanging around, but I feel like, if the dizziness would stop, I would be totally recovered. It may just be, my body needs more time...?

[Cdsnuts]

I've been at it for around 18 months, and I've seen some great results. I've done two 1-week juice feasts, and one 2-week juice feast, and I'm currently cycling 14 herbs. The only parts of the protocol I don't do is "sunning the boys" (I get plenty of sun, just not on the boys) and pumping (I don't have trouble getting erections). My diet is super clean, I'm lifting, doing yoga and surfing on a regular basis.. I feel like I'm getting close, and all the symptoms that remain are milder than when it first started, just still have this pesky dizziness intermittently. I do have some other symptoms hanging around, but I feel like, if the dizziness would stop, I would be totally recovered. It may just be, my body needs more time...?

What type of dizziness? Like, when does it come on, and how often?

[Jado]

What type of dizziness? Like, when does it come on, and how often?
So, it varies. Sometimes it's like a mild lightheadedness, and other times it's more severe, not quite room is spinning, but almost. It's not nearly as frequent as it was in the beginning, and it doesn't last as long. Also, I used to have horrible headaches almost everyday, and they seemed to be linked to the dizziness (obviously both neuro). Now the headaches have all but stopped. I may get a very mild one here and there, but they're not bad at all. Honestly, a couple months back I had about a 3 month stretch where I had no dizziness, and only very mild symptoms in general. I thought for sure I was gonna be posting in the recovery section in no time. Then this dizziness slowly started again. It's not daily, some days I don't have any. I would say it's happening like 2-3 days a week. Sometimes it last a couple hours, sometimes only 15-20 min. It seems like driving may it worse, actually. Almost like an equilibrium thing. Didn't really notice that early on, but noticing it now... I feel like it's just another downswing, and I know it will pass, just looking for ways to treat symptoms until my body finishes healing. Of course I also don't want to do something that makes it worse...

[Cdsnuts]

So, it varies. Sometimes it's like a mild lightheadedness, and other times it's more severe, not quite room is spinning, but almost. It's not nearly as frequent as it was in the beginning, and it doesn't last as long. Also, I used to have horrible headaches almost everyday, and they seemed to be linked to the dizziness (obviously both neuro). Now the headaches have all but stopped. I may get a very mild one here and there, but they're not bad at all. Honestly, a couple months back I had about a 3 month stretch where I had no dizziness, and only very mild symptoms in general. I thought for sure I was gonna be posting in the recovery section in no time. Then this dizziness slowly started again. It's not daily, some days I don't have any. I would say it's happening like 2-3 days a week. Sometimes it last a couple hours, sometimes only 15-20 min. It seems like driving may it worse, actually. Almost like an equilibrium thing. Didn't really notice that early on, but noticing it now... I feel like it's just another downswing, and I know it will pass, just looking for ways to treat symptoms until my body finishes healing. Of course I also don't want to do something that makes it worse...

Can you link it to something that you're doing possibly? Like, does it happen after eating, working out, etc, or does it just happen when it happens? Could be something unrelated altogether....

Have you checked your blood pressure?

And yeah, smart not jumping into taking something right away until you can narrow it down.

[Jado]

Can you link it to something that you're doing possibly? Like, does it happen after eating, working out, etc, or does it just happen when it happens? Could be something unrelated altogether....

Have you checked your blood pressure?

And yeah, smart not jumping into taking something right away until you can narrow it down.

Yeah, I haven't been able to tie it to anything specific. Like I said, it kinda seems worse when I drive, but it could just be driving exacerbates very mild dizziness that I don't really notice till I drive.
I'll start paying closer attention to see if eating has any effect. Eating cheese and a few other things use to give me headaches, but haven't noticed any correlation with dizziness. I'll really start paying closer attention. I mean, heck, this whole thing seems so unpredictable, it's hard to say. I'm stoked I'm doing better, just wanna post in that recovery section!
I don't have hypertension. My dad had it, so I always keep an eye on it.
We'll see, I really feel I'm close, and I know I'll get there, just want it now.

[Cdsnuts]

Yeah, I haven't been able to tie it to anything specific. Like I said, it kinda seems worse when I drive, but it could just be driving exacerbates very mild dizziness that I don't really notice till I drive.
I'll start paying closer attention to see if eating has any effect. Eating cheese and a few other things use to give me headaches, but haven't noticed any correlation with dizziness. I'll really start paying closer attention. I mean, heck, this whole thing seems so unpredictable, it's hard to say. I'm stoked I'm doing better, just wanna post in that recovery section!
I don't have hypertension. My dad had it, so I always keep an eye on it.
We'll see, I really feel I'm close, and I know I'll get there, just want it now.

Lol....I hear you man, I do. And you WILL post in that recovery section sooner then later. I think it's safe to say the worst is behind you now at least. But yeah, please keep us posted. I haven't heard of this symptom so much, so I'm curious to know how it pans out.

[Jado]

Can you link it to something that you're doing possibly? Like, does it happen after eating, working out, etc, or does it just happen when it happens? Could be something unrelated altogether....

Have you checked your blood pressure?

And yeah, smart not jumping into taking something right away until you can narrow it down.

You know what I just thought of...I've been spending a TON of time on my phone - searching, texting, etc. Maybe that has something to do with it...?

[Cdsnuts]

You know what I just thought of...I've been spending a TON of time on my phone - searching, texting, etc. Maybe that has something to do with it...?

I mean, it COULD be possible. There is alot of interesting (and horrifying) research on all of the cell phone radiation we are bathed in on a daily basis, especially with the new 5G technology being blasted out all over the place. You may have a sensitivity to certain electromagnetic fields. I mean, it's a stretch, but not out of the realm of possibility.

Read up on something called the Q-link pendant. Q-Link Pendant: What You Need to Know - EMF Empowerment (https://emfempowerment.com/q-link-pendant/)

I've had one for about 15 years now, although I haven't worn it in quite sometime. Really since being recovered. There is alot of solid scientific research behind this. Give it a read and do your own research. I simply pulled the first article that came up when linking it here.

[Jado]

I mean, it COULD be possible. There is alot of interesting (and horrifying) research on all of the cell phone radiation we are bathed in on a daily basis, especially with the new 5G technology being blasted out all over the place. You may have a sensitivity to certain electromagnetic fields. I mean, it's a stretch, but not out of the realm of possibility.

Read up on something called the Q-link pendant. Q-Link Pendant: What You Need to Know - EMF Empowerment (https://emfempowerment.com/q-link-pendant/)

I've had one for about 15 years now, although I haven't worn it in quite sometime. Really since being recovered. There is alot of solid scientific research behind this. Give it a read and do your own research. I simply pulled the first article that came up when linking it here.

Thanks man, I'll check it out. I was thinking more related to blue light/eye strain...either way, I know tje worst is behind, and I'll keep pushing till I get there. Thanks again, man

[blackkey96]

Hey Turnover25, i saw your comment somewhere where you mentioned that your tinitus went away. I was interested to know how long did it take for it to go away? Did the protocol help with that?

[Anun1234]

Mine say ag ..... checking for the gene . Not sure what that means? 24.5 frequency huh?

[Turnover25]

I don’t touch this thread often, thought I’d weigh in with some test results. I took the same test as Joe and had nearly the exact same results, all of my neurotransmitters were tanked. Including GABA, serotonin, dopamine, you name it, all deficient. My hormones were all shooting through the roof, DHT, test, estrogen all sky high, at least in my urine, I don’t know what they’d look like on a blood test. If they were lower, I’d assume my body isn’t metabolizing hormones.

At least my T is back up, after I crashed I got my test levels tested, and I had the Test of a 96 year old man. And I’ve made great progress, so here we are.

For neurotransmitters, I’m not going to try to treat them. Anything having to do with neurotransmitters makes me worse, I can’t take L glutamine, L thianine, none of that stuff. I think it just causes a further imbalance for me. I’m just gonna stick to the protocol, prohormones for some neurosteroids, and cold showers to send that nice electric shock to the brain in hopes of it kickstarting my neurotransmitter production like you would while jumping an old, shitty broken down car back to life on the side of the highway. I’m that car 😂

Anyways, just started a probiotic and TUDCA. Seeing VERY positive results. One positive I’ve noticed is I’ve began dreaming again nightly. In my case, I think my condition is largely in my gut/organs, so I’m taking extra good care of them. I also just ended a nice 3 day water fast to oil some things up, and now I’m on the straight and narrow, following the protocol with zero cheating or indulging, I’m beyond all that now.

Also, just discovered Medjool dates and swapped them out for anything with artificial sugar during my backloading windows. HOW HAVE I NOT DISCOVERED THESE SOONER??? They taste like fucking candy. I’m obsessed.

Anyways. Only good stuff ahead boys.

[MungYarlon]

I don’t touch this thread often, thought I’d weigh in with some test results. I took the same test as Joe and had nearly the exact same results, all of my neurotransmitters were tanked. Including GABA, serotonin, dopamine, you name it, all deficient. My hormones were all shooting through the roof, DHT, test, estrogen all sky high, at least in my urine, I don’t know what they’d look like on a blood test. If they were lower, I’d assume my body isn’t metabolizing hormones.

At least my T is back up, after I crashed I got my test levels tested, and I had the Test of a 96 year old man. And I’ve made great progress, so here we are.

For neurotransmitters, I’m not going to try to treat them. Anything having to do with neurotransmitters makes me worse, I can’t take L glutamine, L thianine, none of that stuff. I think it just causes a further imbalance for me. I’m just gonna stick to the protocol, prohormones for some neurosteroids, and cold showers to send that nice electric shock to the brain in hopes of it kickstarting my neurotransmitter production like you would while jumping an old, shitty broken down car back to life on the side of the highway. I’m that car 😂

Anyways, just started a probiotic and TUDCA. Seeing VERY positive results. One positive I’ve noticed is I’ve began dreaming again nightly. In my case, I think my condition is largely in my gut/organs, so I’m taking extra good care of them. I also just ended a nice 3 day water fast to oil some things up, and now I’m on the straight and narrow, following the protocol with zero cheating or indulging, I’m beyond all that now.

Also, just discovered Medjool dates and swapped them out for anything with artificial sugar during my backloading windows. HOW HAVE I NOT DISCOVERED THESE SOONER??? They taste like fucking candy. I’m obsessed.

Anyways. Only good stuff ahead boys.

Yea I thought you would have similar test results bro. I may be wrong but from what I understand the hormones work by triggering the neurotransmitters to produce.
I know you said you weren't gonna mess with the neurotransmitters but what I would recommend is sorghum and glycine. I'm due to try sorghum admittedly but lots of people have had success with it, whereas I am very happy with the glycine (it's also in the protocol). Both stimulate allopregnanolone which will boost GABA.

Good luck with your progress tho man. How is the brain fog like right now?

[Turnover25]

Yea I thought you would have similar test results bro. I may be wrong but from what I understand the hormones work by triggering the neurotransmitters to produce.
I know you said you weren't gonna mess with the neurotransmitters but what I would recommend is sorghum and glycine. I'm due to try sorghum admittedly but lots of people have had success with it, whereas I am very happy with the glycine (it's also in the protocol). Both stimulate allopregnanolone which will boost GABA.

Good luck with your progress tho man. How is the brain fog like right now?

Nice, I’ll give those a shot then. I’m going to predict right now that they make me feel bad, seems to be how things usually go for me, but you never know. I’ve been meaning to try glycine for some time, but I’ve seen some horror stories. How do you get sorghum? Through food? GABA is definitely something I need to get more of.

Brain fog is my primary symptom of pfs. I had it to the most severe degree. It’s gotten better but SLOWLY. Things I’m beginning to notice are my memories slowly coming back little by little, my vision improving slowly, dreams starting to return, I still feel detached from the world but not as bad. My last cycle of Ultra Hard was when things really started to turn the corner for the best. It was clear and obvious. I’m guessing it was the kick of neurosteroids. I work in accounting now that I’ve graduated and took some time off, and I’m good at my job, whereas a year and a half ago there’s no way I would have been able to do my job due to brain fog.

[Cdsnuts]

Nice, I’ll give those a shot then. I’m going to predict right now that they make me feel bad, seems to be how things usually go for me, but you never know. I’ve been meaning to try glycine for some time, but I’ve seen some horror stories. How do you get sorghum? Through food? GABA is definitely something I need to get more of.

Brain fog is my primary symptom of pfs. I had it to the most severe degree. It’s gotten better but SLOWLY. Things I’m beginning to notice are my memories slowly coming back little by little, my vision improving slowly, dreams starting to return, I still feel detached from the world but not as bad. My last cycle of Ultra Hard was when things really started to turn the corner for the best. It was clear and obvious. I’m guessing it was the kick of neurosteroids. I work in accounting now that I’ve graduated and took some time off, and I’m good at my job, whereas a year and a half ago there’s no way I would have been able to do my job due to brain fog.

Horror stories about glycine? That would be a first for me. The stuff is pretty harmless.

And yeah, everytime I tried to mess with my neurotransmitters, no good. For me, it was better to have them healed from the inside out. The cold showers, breathing exercises, regular exercise will eventually do the trick along with meditation.

[Turnover25]

Horror stories about glycine? That would be a first for me. The stuff is pretty harmless.

And yeah, everytime I tried to mess with my neurotransmitters, no good. For me, it was better to have them healed from the inside out. The cold showers, breathing exercises, regular exercise will eventually do the trick along with meditation.

Good to know, I’m going to stick to that then. Along with trying some glycine.

As far as horror stories, only the infamous Paigidol crash where he claimed glycine had something to do with it. Also Jacknap said it made him feel a little worse. But everyone is different.

[Cdsnuts]

Good to know, I’m going to stick to that then. Along with trying some glycine.

As far as horror stories, only the infamous Paigidol crash where he claimed glycine had something to do with it. Also Jacknap said it made him feel a little worse. But everyone is different.

Paigidol? Lol...I wouldn't take anything he said seriously.

[Turnover25]

Paigidol? Lol...I wouldn't take anything he said seriously.

Lmao. Touché

[Mojo]

There is glycine in most things we eat on a paleo diet. Along with most other amino acids. Taking some extra seems like a very safe thing to do. All your body does is use it to build other molecules as needed. I’ve been taking 1.5gr of glycine daily for half a year now and have never noticed an adverse reaction. On the other hand I’ve never really felt it explicitly benefit me either. But I’ve been improving anyway. It’s just another small building block that helps the protocol work it’s magic.

Also it’s dirt cheap.

[Turnover25]

There is glycine in most things we eat on a paleo diet. Along with most other amino acids. Taking some extra seems like a very safe thing to do. All your body does is use it to build other molecules as needed. I’ve been taking 1.5gr of glycine daily for half a year now and have never noticed an adverse reaction. On the other hand I’ve never really felt it explicitly benefit me either. But I’ve been improving anyway. It’s just another small building block that helps the protocol work it’s magic.

Also it’s dirt cheap.

Awesome, I’ll give it a shot this week. Thanks bro.

[MungYarlon]

Awesome, I’ll give it a shot this week. Thanks bro.

I take a bit more, normally between 6 and 10 grams. That gives me a fair benefit.

[Cdsnuts]

Glycine is HARMLESS. You can take as much as you need to get the effect you want without worrying about any damage. Very safe compound.

[Turnover25]

Small update: I don’t make much of these, so I thought I’d update.

Added in glycine, I think it’s the best supplement I’ve tried so far. I’ve seen massive improvements in depression/memory within a week. I tested my neurotransmitters and I was low on glycine, as well as all the others, so it’s really helped. I’m going to be adding in some taurine and tyrosine soon to try and help with GABA and dopamine, but I don’t have any expectations.

I started a new job in accounting back in October, and I feel like I’ve really improved since then. When I started I felt like I was thinking through a blanket much more and my job was harder, I’m doing a little better in that department now. And the bright office lights aren’t effecting me as bad, as light sensitivity is a big symptom of mine, but I think it’s improved. A year ago, there’s no way I would have been able to do this job.

Since my second pro hormones cycle in November I feel like I’ve made a lot of improvements. I’m thinking more clearly for sure. I’m excited to run my next cycle in March, hopefully I make more improvements. I’ll be starting with R Andro, then running a bottle of ultra hard after I finish the bottle of R Andro. Reason being I still have some R Andro left, and I got different benefits from each so I’d like to use both. Eventually I’ll switch to just ultra hard.

I’ve added in some supplements that I’ve narrowed down to my specific situation over time that all seem to be helping, which are TUDCA (I’ll stop this after a few months or so, but it’s helped a lot), Gotu Kola, Acetyl Glutathione, a pro biotic, glycine, and some shilajit daily for metal detox. I seem to be responding really well to these, I also take herbs, vitamins, and do the protocol as my foundation. I’ve also cut out all processed sugar, and grains as well. Only potato’s and dates for my backloads, which I’m fine with.

I’ll update soon boys. I’m seeing improvements for sure, I’m not suffering like I was. Still in the woods a bit, but doing better. Keep pushing!

[Maxout777]

Adding in glycine was a big hit for me during recovery, so I know how you feel there. As far as your office lights go, I would recommend either some Gunnars or TrueDark blue blockers. I still use them to this day and it helps with strain headaches and keeps you from having the circadian rhythm f'd up from all day under bright lights and staring at screens.

Looks like you're really close my man, I'm happy to see you getting close to crossing the line!

[Mojo]

What glycine dose are you taking turnover? Took 1.5g for the longest time without much effect. Decided recently to try move up to 3g an noticing a light calming effect. Wonder if I should move up even more.

[MungYarlon]

What glycine dose are you taking turnover? Took 1.5g for the longest time without much effect. Decided recently to try move up to 3g an noticing a light calming effect. Wonder if I should move up even more.

6-10 grams should give you a nice effect. That's what I use.

[Cdsnuts]

What glycine dose are you taking turnover? Took 1.5g for the longest time without much effect. Decided recently to try move up to 3g an noticing a light calming effect. Wonder if I should move up even more.

Up it, like Mojo suggested. My sweet spot was always 5 grams.

[Queens1984]

Up it, like Mojo suggested. My sweet spot was always 5 grams.

Should I be adding this into the PROTOCOL?

[Turnover25]

Adding in glycine was a big hit for me during recovery, so I know how you feel there. As far as your office lights go, I would recommend either some Gunnars or TrueDark blue blockers. I still use them to this day and it helps with strain headaches and keeps you from having the circadian rhythm f'd up from all day under bright lights and staring at screens.

Looks like you're really close my man, I'm happy to see you getting close to crossing the line!

Thanks bro, I’ll look into those. I’ve come a long way in that department, I couldn’t even look at screens when this all began.

Slowly inching my way there. I wish I was closer but I’ve self sabotaged quite a bit during my journey, taking it much more seriously now, and seeing the benefits as such. But I’m definitely at a point where I think I’ve at least turned the corner.

- - - Updated - - -


What glycine dose are you taking turnover? Took 1.5g for the longest time without much effect. Decided recently to try move up to 3g an noticing a light calming effect. Wonder if I should move up even more.

About 3 g, I’m going to up it to about 5 g starting today and see how I feel. I felt better with 3 grams than I did with 1.5 grams.

[Maxout777]

Should I be adding this into the PROTOCOL?

I would, if sleep is still an issue. 5g, before bed.

[Queens1984]

I would, if sleep is still an issue. 5g, before bed.

Okay I will go too the vitamin shop and pick it up...

[Cdsnuts]

Should I be adding this into the PROTOCOL?

It's part of the protocol: Glycine | Total Male Optimization (https://www.totalmaleoptimization.com/sleep/glycine/)

You guys should really take the time and read the ENTIRE site. It will do nothing but serve you better and cut down on needless questions.

[Queens1984]

It's part of the protocol: Glycine | Total Male Optimization (https://www.totalmaleoptimization.com/sleep/glycine/)

You guys should really take the time and read the ENTIRE site. It will do nothing but serve you better and cut down on needless questions.

Trust me I have went over YOUR SITE. I just never had a problem sleeping 💤, now with the sudden crash my Anxiety is through the roof I can’t sleep. I will Deff look into this supplement

[Cdsnuts]

Trust me I have went over YOUR SITE. I just never had a problem sleeping ��, now with the sudden crash my Anxiety is through the roof I can’t sleep. I will Deff look into this supplement

Gotcha.

Poor/inability to Sleep was one of my first symptoms. Consider yourself lucky that it just started happening.

[Queens1984]

Gotcha.

Poor/inability to Sleep was one of my first symptoms. Consider yourself lucky that it just started happening.

Deff mine too back when I first crashed in 2012. Every time I crash I have issues sleeping. I will Deff be ordering this supplement.

[Cdsnuts]

Deff mine too back when I first crashed in 2012. Every time I crash I have issues sleeping. I will Deff be ordering this supplement.

It works good as a standalone but better when stacked with other sleep supps.

[Queens1984]

It works good as a standalone but better when stacked with other sleep supps.
Yes I’m going too be Stacking it with the Magnesium

[Cdsnuts]

Yes I’m going too be Stacking it with the Magnesium

That's a very good combo. Add some Albizia (https://www.totalmaleoptimization.com/sleep/albizia/) to that along with a low dose of melatonin and you'll be ZZZZZZ before long.

[Queens1984]

That's a very good combo. Add some Albizia (https://www.totalmaleoptimization.com/sleep/albizia/) to that along with a low dose of melatonin and you'll be ZZZZZZ before long.

Awesome. Need too Relax this brain

[Cdsnuts]

Awesome. Need too Relax this brain

And just to add to this, the sleep herbs can be used more then once or twice a week as they have different mechanisms of action then the T boosters. Tolerance isn't AS MUCH of an issue with them.

To really kick it into high gear, take a cold shower a half hour before bed, then take all your sleep supps and hit the sheets. Once you're tucked in, do a couple rounds of 4-7-8 breathing and turn it off. LIGHTS OUT!

[Queens1984]

And just to add to this, the sleep herbs can be used more then once or twice a week as they have different mechanisms of action then the T boosters. Tolerance isn't AS MUCH of an issue with them.

To really kick it into high gear, take a cold shower a half hour before bed, then take all your sleep supps and hit the sheets. Once you're tucked in, do a couple rounds of 4-7-8 breathing and turn it off. LIGHTS OUT!

Okay. Thanks CD. That’s what I will DO

[Cdsnuts]

Okay. Thanks CD. That’s what I will DO

How did it go?

[Queens1984]

How did it go?

Just waiting for the Glycine and Magnesium too Arrive

[Turnover25]

Gonna leave this on my thread for my benefit. Trying to find a good balance when it comes to amino acids, a huge part of my PFS is my neurosteroids, which massively effect my brain fog when altered in any way. L thianine is a game changer for me, because it boosts gaba, dopamine, and serotonin in (which are all tanked for me), until I take it for more than a day and things lose their balance and my brain fog becomes all consuming.

Just added glycine daily, which is giving me massive improvements and fluctuations in depression for its serotonin and GABA effects, but it leads to heavy downswings too. Just took L thianine mixed with caffeine on top of it, and I feel crystal clear clarity. I’m going to try and take this stuff maybe 1-2 times a week to get the benefits without throwing things out of wack. The amino acids, in my opinion, are crucial to brain fog recovery. I think brain fog, like Joe said, is due to neurotransmitters being deficient.

Tried l phenylalanine yesterday and it put me on my ass for the rest of the day, which is weird because it’s a stimulant. Had so much fatigue that I could barely move around. Gonna stick to cold showers when it comes to the neurotransmitters that that one in particular effects, such as epinephrine, norepinephrine and PEA, which cold showers stimulate the production of.

Gonna try some tyrosine, and taurine, but with caution cuz I don’t want to throw things out of balance, aka too much dopamine could effect serotonin, vice versa. So far I’m mainly focusing on glycine and theanine, since they are the ones in the protocol and don’t pose risk. Thinking of maybe trying to cycle them, just as we do with herbs, since too much of anything is bad.

I’m mainly just experimenting because I’m finally starting to see some big results in my cognition, so I’m having some fun seeing what helps and what doesn’t. It wasn’t this easy a year ago, things could crash me and send me spiraling under, where now, if it effects me I just bin it, no harm no foul, but if it helps, I keep it in my arsenal. First time I took glycine, my thoughts began free flowing like pre PFS, and I felt amazing mood wise. Since then it’s given me fluctuations in brain fog and mood, but I think that’s a good thing. Also, glycine also helped get rid of that yellow-tint in my vision. No idea what the deal is there, but my vision while looking at white objects has been yellowish since pfs started, also my vision can be very dim when I go outside sometimes, which is improving also. I fucking hated those symptoms.


Edit: I also have a theory about depression or anhedonia some of us face after DHT cycles, including me, since my last ultra hard cycle 2 months ago I saw improvements in some places but my depression was worse, I believe that’s due to DHT’s effect on lowering serotonin, glycine has pretty much eliminated my post cycle depression, I think due to stimulating serotonin. Just something to think about. Kinda similar to how rave culture uses 5-htp to raise serotonin back to normal levels after festivals where they drop MDMA for days at a time. Serotonin syndrome is real. Don’t try the 5-htp thing. Just a comparison.

[MungYarlon]

Gonna leave this on my thread for my benefit. Trying to find a good balance when it comes to amino acids, a huge part of my PFS is my neurosteroids, which massively effect my brain fog when altered in any way. L thianine is a game changer for me, because it boosts gaba, dopamine, and serotonin in (which are all tanked for me), until I take it for more than a day and things lose their balance and my brain fog becomes all consuming.

Just added glycine daily, which is giving me massive improvements and fluctuations in depression for its serotonin and GABA effects, but it leads to heavy downswings too. Just took L thianine mixed with caffeine on top of it, and I feel crystal clear clarity. I’m going to try and take this stuff maybe 1-2 times a week to get the benefits without throwing things out of wack. The amino acids, in my opinion, are crucial to brain fog recovery. I think brain fog, like Joe said, is due to neurotransmitters being deficient.

Tried l phenylalanine yesterday and it put me on my ass for the rest of the day, which is weird because it’s a stimulant. Had so much fatigue that I could barely move around. Gonna stick to cold showers when it comes to the neurotransmitters that that one in particular effects, such as epinephrine, norepinephrine and PEA, which cold showers stimulate the production of.

Gonna try some tyrosine, and taurine, but with caution cuz I don’t want to throw things out of balance, aka too much dopamine could effect serotonin, vice versa. So far I’m mainly focusing on glycine and theanine, since they are the ones in the protocol and don’t pose risk. Thinking of maybe trying to cycle them, just as we do with herbs, since too much of anything is bad.

I’m mainly just experimenting because I’m finally starting to see some big results in my cognition, so I’m having some fun seeing what helps and what doesn’t. It wasn’t this easy a year ago, things could crash me and send me spiraling under, where now, if it effects me I just bin it, no harm no foul, but if it helps, I keep it in my arsenal. First time I took glycine, my thoughts began free flowing like pre PFS, and I felt amazing mood wise. Since then it’s given me fluctuations in brain fog and mood, but I think that’s a good thing. Also, glycine also helped get rid of that yellow-tint in my vision. No idea what the deal is there, but my vision while looking at white objects has been yellowish since pfs started, also my vision can be very dim when I go outside sometimes, which is improving also. I fucking hated those symptoms.


Edit: I also have a theory about depression or anhedonia some of us face after DHT cycles, including me, since my last ultra hard cycle 2 months ago I saw improvements in some places but my depression was worse, I believe that’s due to DHT’s effect on lowering serotonin, glycine has pretty much eliminated my post cycle depression, I think due to stimulating serotonin. Just something to think about.

That's my man, excellent progress. I knew adding glycine would help out in your circumstances. Regarding depression/ anhedonia it's likely that the glycine eliminates these symptoms due to its ability to enhance type 1 5-ar which therefore increases allopregnanolone. Allopregnanolone has major antidepressant qualities.

[Turnover25]

That's my man, excellent progress. I knew adding glycine would help out in your circumstances. Regarding depression/ anhedonia it's likely that the glycine eliminates these symptoms due to its ability to enhance type 1 5-ar which therefore increases allopregnanolone. Allopregnanolone has major antidepressant qualities.

Thanks bro! That could very well be it. Either way, it’s a great supplement so far.

[Queens1984]

Thanks bro! That could very well be it. Either way, it’s a great supplement so far.
Hey buddy you taking the Glycine at night or in the Morning. I was going too take it just at night a few times a week just for SLEEP HELP?

[Turnover25]

Hey buddy you taking the Glycine at night or in the Morning. I was going too take it just at night a few times a week just for SLEEP HELP?

At night time, my man.

[Queens1984]

At night time, my man.
Thanks buddy. Going too mix it with Magnesium at night a few times a week.

[MungYarlon]

Thanks buddy. Going too mix it with Magnesium at night a few times a week.

Take 6-10 grams to begin with. The 2 grams which I often see recommended is no where near enough.

[Queens1984]

Take 6-10 grams to begin with. The 2 grams which I often see recommended is no where near enough.

Okay. Deff 3 times a week. Waiting for it too Arive

[MungYarlon]

Okay. Deff 3 times a week. Waiting for it too Arive

You could take it everyday if you want. That's what I do, and i haven't noticed any tolerance to it.

[Queens1984]

You could take it everyday if you want. That's what I do, and i haven't noticed any tolerance to it.
Okay. I’m going too start it out with the Magnesium. Mix them together. Should be a nice little punch.

[MungYarlon]

Okay. I’m going too start it out with the Magnesium. Mix them together. Should be a nice little punch.

Haven't tried magnesium tbh. I take glycine to boost 5-ar, and not for sleep, though. Let me know how you get on.

[Queens1984]

Haven't tried magnesium tbh. I take glycine to boost 5-ar, and not for sleep, though. Let me know how you get on.

Boost 5-ar. Look forward too adding this too the Protocol for myself....

[MungYarlon]

Boost 5-ar. Look forward too adding this too the Protocol for myself....

Regulation of neurosteroid allopregnanolone biosynthesis in the rat spinal cord by glycine and the alkaloidal analogs strychnine and gelsemine - PubMed (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18367344/)
Here's the study

[Queens1984]

Regulation of neurosteroid allopregnanolone biosynthesis in the rat spinal cord by glycine and the alkaloidal analogs strychnine and gelsemine - PubMed (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18367344/)
Here's the study
Yes I was just reading that. Very interesting. Hopefully I get a big boost from that. Should be getting my delivery 📦 next week. Bad weather keeps delaying it.

[MungYarlon]

Yes I was just reading that. Very interesting. Hopefully I get a big boost from that. Should be getting my delivery 📦 next week. Bad weather keeps delaying it.

Final thing, since you want to take a high dose, between 6-10 grams, what I'd advise you to do is put that 10 grams in a glass without water, take it as a shot, and wash that down with water.

It'll be quicker and it'll ensure that you get all of it into your system. High dose glycine doesn't dissolve too well in water, and you'll therefore find a lot at the bottom of your glass after consumption.

[Queens1984]

Final thing, since you want to take a high dose, between 6-10 grams, what I'd advise you to do is put that 10 grams in a glass without water, take it as a shot, and wash that down with water.

It'll be quicker and it'll ensure that you get all of it into your system. High dose glycine doesn't dissolve too well in water, and you'll therefore find a lot at the bottom of your glass after consumption.

Thanks. I will Deff go that Route

[Bobdylan97]

Glycine helps because its effectively a gaba antagonist, gaba agonists over time will increase your brain fog.

[MungYarlon]

Glycine helps because its effectively a gaba antagonist, gaba agonists over time will increase your brain fog.

Show me a source which says that.