Yeah, you'll be fine soon. Has the brain fog cleared up completely?
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Indeed lol. I’m excited to see what it does now that I’m in much better shape than my first cycle.
How’d you get rid of brain fog btw? I mean, mine is definitely improving. I live a pretty normal life now. But I can’t say it’s gone completely. Just curious how that went for you.
If that was gone completely I’d probably be out of here.
I’m happy to see you’re doing better man. These prohormones are going to have to be good enough for me as far as neurosteroids. I’ve tried a fair share of supplements and had enough crashes to stick to what I’m doing, so far the prohormones are the thing that’s helping me above all.
This last cycle of Ultrahard, within a couple days I felt my short term memory start flickering and it’s like I can think again. Cool stuff man.
I thought neurotransmitters outside of the brain are useless to test as they are not indicative of what’s happening in the brain. What kind of test see you doing for neurotransmitters? Any studies to prove these tests somehow coordinate to levels in the brain?
Thanks in advance
What DHB product are you using?
All of this is really interesting to me
I’ve always believed that Finastride inhibits 5-ar type 1 in pfs cases and causes all these additional sides in combination with disturbed gut balance that causes skin and neurological issues.
When it comes to using TRT to fix androgen receptors I’ve done that unintentionally for the past year and I don’t think it was effective as much as you think, basically i inject Testosterone every once in a while without using AIs (because of all the horror stories I heard about using them) and I always start feeling a bit better at the beginning and i even get a libido boost until my Estrogen shoots up and i get all the high E2 symptoms such as complete penis numbness, depression, nipples sensitivity, anhedonia, and a difficulty urinating (which i never had prior to Finastride) and this makes it really hard to keep my Testosterone high so i wait until my estrogen drops down naturally and the cycle starts again with no improvement.
My cholesterol skyrocketed this year. A few months after my fin usage I went from perfect levels to drastically high. I always assumed it was genetics, as it does run in the fam. Is it really far fetched to speculate that maybe not enough cholesterol is being transformed into other hormones, causing a surplus of cholesterol?
Lots of weird things happened with my blood values this year. My ferritin went from borderline high to 3 times the max range (could be hereditary or systemic inflammation), my thyroid went from normal to hypo to normal again. And now my kidneys are acting up.
Have a bio store next door and found some sorghum rice crackers. Bought a few packs and some grain to prepare myself. Tastes quite nice and its gluten free so its perfect for paleo and backloading.
I appreciate your drive to investigate and test, without descending into crazy theories. Hope you recover fully soon!
Have you thought about using the cream full-time and transcrotal to get higher DHT conversion? It seems like you had a decent response to it. Usually people take a couple months to “dial in” on TRT. Have you thought about doing it indefinitely while doing the protocol along with some of the other supplements you found helpful?
Doing the protocol while using exogenous test defeats, for the most part, doing the protocol at all. One of the major reasons for doing this is to get your natural test production back online. That's not going to happen while doing TRT. If anything, it's going to hinder your progress, not push it along.
Cd I’m struggling to understand how being on bioidentical testosterone makes the protocol pretty much pointless. The protocol is a blueprint to optimize sleep, exercise, diet, stress management, gut health and soooo much more than just boosting test. As you point out - the protocol obviously has some sort of positive epigenetic impact on those recovering from PFS. So how does attacking your recovery from every angle (sleep, exercise, nutrition, gut, hormones, stress etc) become worthless once someone is getting their sex hormones in optimal ranges through testosterone?
Love and am incredibly appreciative of you CD! I just don’t understand why it would stop/hinder the protocol from working as long as you were doing everything else right and not expecting a silver bullet cure. Just using it as a tool in the tool-belt of recovery.
What I would guess here is that the full protocol is based on an holistic approach, which pursues an optimal body function systemically working by itself, what you have to do in this protocol is just push for this systemical reset, and TRT gives you testoterone, which is a part of the protocol, indeed _____ but _____ in the end it halts the body balance by interfering with it exogenously (having it's complications as well) just like any medication that mess with endocrinal system and it's optimal function, and that is the very opposite from what the protocol means
Just a guess, though
Like I said, and as @Gomesgame mentioned, your body will not produce it's own Test if you're on TRT. One of the main pillars of this protocol. There are also other hormonal effects from the herbs that will be hindered by not letting the body produce it's own hormones.
To be a little clearer.....There will be certain strides made if you do this protocol while on TRT, no doubt. You will get in great shape, you will get a clearer mind, better functionality overall and many of the other benefits will come despite the TRT....but then what? We all know that even on TRT, pfs is still prevalent, so why suppress yourself even more? You're gonna have to come off the TRT eventually if you want to heal because I have not taked to one man in ten years who has ever recovered while running exogenous Test......not one.
This is a systemic approach. It pushes ALL the bodily systems to adjust to a proper baseline. It does this relatively simultaneously. So your brain will be healing, your muscles will be growing, your stress will be going down and your hormones will be recovering. Everything is connected in your system through one way or another. By holding one of these healing areas back, you're going to be dragging ALL the others areas as they try to move forward.
What ever gains you make on this protcol on TRT will be lost when you go to get off as your body is now going to have to get your endocrine system back up and running. it's easier on the system and quicker to fully heal when all the bodys functions are coming back online together. This is what I have noticed with everyone I work with over the past decade.
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Well said.
I'm sorry if this question is borderlining derailment but; you and CD both advocate against use of exogenous Testosterone. However, isn't supplementing with Pine Pollen the same thing?
Or does it work by indirectly increasing Testosterone production?
Pine pollen has trace amounts of hormones in it. No where near the amount and effect that TRT would have..not even close. I'm not going to go deep into the science about it, as that info can be easily found, but you will NOT get shut down from even mega dosing PP daily. Even though these trace hormones are present, the other major constituents of the herb works synergistically with your body, not against it. It's loaded with plant sterols, vitamins, minerals. hormones and plant based hormones as well. Your body uses the PP to help boost it's own production. TRT completely shuts down your natural production which is the opposite of what you're trying to accomplish.
Saved me a post on this one:
Listen guys....I'm all for free speech and what not but everyone knows this forum is for discussing recovering with TMO. I don't want to come acrossed as a hard ass at all but there are MANY other places to discuss the types of things that Joe is doing. I always said if someone came up with a quicker, easier way to recover, we could shut this place down as there would be no more need to for TMO concerning pfs, that is.
I'm leaving it be because, well, for one, it's his log, and his life. Even though the things that he is doing have never resulted in a recovery, in his research he may stumble upon something that maybe useful for the community.
I'm always of the same general opinion when it comes to other methods simply because I don't see the recoveries to back them up. We know this one works, although it is expensive and has alot of moving parts. Because of this, in my mind I don't see the point in bothering with anything else.
That being said It's good to have one or two different approaches vs the status quo. Especially when documented the way he is. In the end, it's just going to strengthen the position of TMO in the pfs community.
Thanks for the disclaimer on that Joe.....My intention is to simply not confuse already scared and devastated guys with anything other then the existing protocol which has been proven time and time again to work.
Regardless, you have one of the most viewed logs on the site, so it's earned it's place.
Good luck Joe. Please continue to keep us posted on your progress.
For all the guys reading this thread that are still wondering if TRT might still be the answer for them, I thought it may be worth adding my personal experience with this.
After years of trying many many different avenues to recover from a real bad case of PFS, I eventually threw caution to the wind and accepted doctor prescribed TRT to treat my PFS, and took it for 2 years. Although it helped considerably (in my case) with the sexual sides and some improvements in other areas, i spent the 2 years trying to convince myself it was curing me, but i still very much had PFS. I decided to stop the TRT eventually due to the inevitable onset of its own set of side effects. As soon as i did, all the perceived gains i thought i had made sexually/physically/mentally on TRT dissipated within weeks and i was right back in the darkness of PFS hell. It was then very clear that the TRT had just been masking some of the issues, it wasn't HEALING anything. and actually causing more imbalances.
I then found this forum, and have been following the Protocol for 2 years now. Over the last 2 years I have seen marked improvements (albeit non-linear)and i believe i am well on my way to a recovery with a bit more time. At this point i have seen enough changes in myself to know not only is recovery possible through this method but likely inevitable with time & consistency.
I will post my full story at some point, but just wanted to offer this experience here for the guys who might be considering going the hormone route.
To those guys i would say, don't waste time like i did. Get to work on the protocol and stick at it like your life depends on it, cause it does.
Go read the “putting it all together” page on TMO. I do that everyday besides stuff like taking glycine. And bath mate. Rest day Sundays. I work full time so I workout after work. Meal prep every night. Sleep around 10 pm-6:30 am.
I have 3 weeks of herbs and I use pine pollen everyday.
It may be best to force yourself into doing things. Get a solid routine going (hitting the gym, putting extra hours in at work etc.) And then working from there. Obviously I don't know of your personal circumstances or routine, but I find these things quite helpful. Also considering implementing, or increasing, caffeine intake. I've found that to be quite beneficial.
Listen....I know what that feels like and I know where you're coming from. As a matter of fact most guys that end up here know that feeling. It makes life feel like it's not worth living.....at least that's what it made me feel like.
When ever you're ready to stop experimenting and getting that out of your system, you know what you have to do to fix it. You're a smart guy so I'll leave it at that.
When ever you're ready.
I may have asked before, but how old are you Joe?
Okay.....when you're ready, I'm here. You're still young and you could be a brand new man before your 30th birthday....hands down.
I understand why you're doing what you're doing, because I did the same thing. But if I can stop another guy from wasting anymore time in limbo/hell, then that's what I'm going to do.
That's where I'm going to leave it.
Good luck.
Hey Joe, so I've just read your thread and I must say, I feel so happy for you in terms of how much you've improved since the beginning. It is honestly an inspiration to the rest of the people here. If you can make it, they sure as shit can.
Anyway, that's all I wanted to say. I was actually extremely shocked by the stuff you were suffering from i.e. the borderline hallucinations etc. Happy belated birthday too by the way!