Oh no! it's another one of the finasteride guys!

Hey guys. I'm going to keep this really brief, I'm one of the finasteride guys. From that forum. I found and devoured everything cdnuts had to say, got the hell off of that nasty site and now I have a plan together to figure it out. I started lurking here a few days ago and realised you guys are actually pretty awesome, inspirational for someone like me really.
I have a few nutritional questions because tbh I've treated my body like shit for a long time, in fact, I've spent a few years just existing, eating crappy food (maybe 1000 calories a day from the worst places) and making shitty life choices etc. So I've decided to man up and ask some questions.

I'm trying to put together a paleo diet but theres a lot of conflicting information about diet on the internet. It's very difficult to decide what's going to be right for my situation. Cdnuts recommends paleo and carb backloading, I understand that and I'm altering my diet as such but I'm still really quite confused about a few things.

1) on my non workout days, do I eat just enough carbs to keep me out of ketosis? I'm carrying a few extra pounds, nothing to drastic but enough that it has to go before I can progress much further with my plans.

2) Can anyone recommend any literature, books, articles, anything that explains the logic behind these concepts and decent nutrition in more depth? I'm one of those guys who can do something if he's told to do it, but if I know why.. I'm a hell of a lot more productive. In the end there's a lot of misinformation, it's pretty obvious you guys have that stuff figured out pretty damned well.

3) On my paleo diet how much fat is to much fat? I primarily use extra virgin olive oil, kg butter and extra virgin coconut oil to cook with and eat a lot of nuts, seeds etc. Not sure how much of that is

4) Am I cool primarily getting my fruits and veggies from green smoothies? I'm not used to eating very much during the day as my diet has sucked for years, green smoothies have been a great way for me to get a huge amount of veggies in my body without having to make a meal of it so to speak.

I've a few more questions and i'm hoping to be able to contribute as much as possible as time progresses. I'm not as totally screwed as some who've been hit by this have been but I'm in a pretty bad place right now and I'm willing to do anything possible to get back to my old self. I'm 25 years old and I feel like i'm eighty.

If the information is already on the forum, I'm sorry for starting this thread but my brain is pretty slow a lot of the time these days. I have more questions that I'll ask in the appropriate section as time goes by but this right now is the most important.

Thanks a lot guys, sorry if the post is a little incoherent but I feel like I'm thinking through treacle a lot of the time.

Cheers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by entropy

Hey guys. I'm going to keep this really brief, I'm one of the finasteride guys. From that forum. I found and devoured everything cdnuts had to say, got the hell off of that nasty site and now I have a plan together to figure it out. I started lurking here a few days ago and realised you guys are actually pretty awesome, inspirational for someone like me really.
I have a few nutritional questions because tbh I've treated my body like shit for a long time, in fact, I've spent a few years just existing, eating crappy food (maybe 1000 calories a day from the worst places) and making shitty life choices etc. So I've decided to man up and ask some questions.

I'm trying to put together a paleo diet but theres a lot of conflicting information about diet on the internet. It's very difficult to decide what's going to be right for my situation. Cdnuts recommends paleo and carb backloading, I understand that and I'm altering my diet as such but I'm still really quite confused about a few things.

1) on my non workout days, do I eat just enough carbs to keep me out of ketosis? I'm carrying a few extra pounds, nothing to drastic but enough that it has to go before I can progress much further with my plans.

2) Can anyone recommend any literature, books, articles, anything that explains the logic behind these concepts and decent nutrition in more depth? I'm one of those guys who can do something if he's told to do it, but if I know why.. I'm a hell of a lot more productive. In the end there's a lot of misinformation, it's pretty obvious you guys have that stuff figured out pretty damned well.

3) On my paleo diet how much fat is to much fat? I primarily use extra virgin olive oil, kg butter and extra virgin coconut oil to cook with and eat a lot of nuts, seeds etc. Not sure how much of that is

4) Am I cool primarily getting my fruits and veggies from green smoothies? I'm not used to eating very much during the day as my diet has sucked for years, green smoothies have been a great way for me to get a huge amount of veggies in my body without having to make a meal of it so to speak.

I've a few more questions and i'm hoping to be able to contribute as much as possible as time progresses. I'm not as totally screwed as some who've been hit by this have been but I'm in a pretty bad place right now and I'm willing to do anything possible to get back to my old self. I'm 25 years old and I feel like i'm eighty.

If the information is already on the forum, I'm sorry for starting this thread but my brain is pretty slow a lot of the time these days. I have more questions that I'll ask in the appropriate section as time goes by but this right now is the most important.

Thanks a lot guys, sorry if the post is a little incoherent but I feel like I'm thinking through treacle a lot of the time.

Cheers.

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Welcome, Entropy. You've just become a part of what I feel is the most helpful and tight-knit fitness/weightlifting/bodybuilding forums on the net. Whatever you need around here, attitude is everything. Come in with a good attitude and an open mind and people will practically line up to help you.

Good luck to you in getting your life back on track. It's a pretty big step, but this is a great place to come for inspiration.

I see you describe yourself as a "Finasteride guy." I presume that you're one of many who took finasteride and suffered some of its terrible and long-lasting side effects. It's a hard thing to recover from for the guys who suffered adverse drug effects.

Anyhow, take a look around and keep us updated on your progress. We're always happy to help someone out.

I actually dont know the answer to anything but #4... But green smoothies only are a fine source of veggies. Try to cook veggies once a day with your meat though its good to make a habit of that.

What are your major symptoms post finasteride? The new ultra epi andro from antaeus might suit you well. Cdsnuts had great results cycling androhard.

Weekend - I had most of the symptoms for the first few weeks, I wont go into details but I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. A lot of it has however eased up over the past two months with a lot of lifestyle changes but it's going to take a long time for me to get better.

As of now I've no libido, some ED, mentally I'm pretty slow now which just sucks. Oh and testicular shrinkage which fluctuates hilariously through the day. One minute they're normal, other times one will shrink, or the other. Can't quite figure it out but I'll let you guys know when I do!

As for androhard and dht prohormones, I think it's very possible that they can and will contribute to my recovery further down the line. Unfortunately it seems the adrenal glands and thyroid are at play here too and need to be corrected before the sex hormones are fixed.


Freepressright - Thanks for the welcome. I was actually just going to lurk but I found the community to be to appealing not to join. You guys are pretty awesome, I've lurked a lot of forums and never seen a community quite like this.

I agree that it's hard to recover from but it isn't impossible. There's commonalities in cdnuts method and a few other recoveries, enough that I have a fairly solid idea what's going on. At least for me and the guys. I've also spoken to a few guys who have managed to get better or consistently improve by adopting an incredibly strict regime, including cdnuts himself. Mine is a work in progress but I'm very confident. Especially with the information I've found here and all over the place.

I'll start a thread in a more appropriate section at some point and elaborate on the situation if you guys would like?

Thanks.

Welcome to the board bro'. 1. As for diet- from my point of view, all this paleo/primal thing is bit caca- as 1. every person has his own food requirement, some people do very well with low carbs other not so- you're best judge 2. every paleo spokesman has its own version of paleo, 3. paleo/primal is not really paleo as if you check out archeological date, you'll find that ancient people were quite an opportunists
So basically you should decide whats best for you, low-med-or higher carbs- one thing we'll all agree is to avoid simple sugars and high GI carbs,

As for your libido issues- try not to stress yourself over it, as you dont want it to become mental problem, you have to understand that for good libido
everything else needs to be in good working order, and you'll have some work to do before fixing libido

Oh and testicular shrinkage which fluctuates hilariously through the day. One minute they're normal, other times one will shrink, or the other. Can't quite figure it out but I'll let you guys know when I do! "
- it sound like "communicating hydrocele"- meaning that fluid from elswere is going into your testicles and back- changing size of them, definitely need to see urologist

"Unfortunately it seems the adrenal glands and thyroid are at play here too and need to be corrected before the sex hormones are fixed" - this is right, to fix problem you need to see bigger picture, seeing endo may be good idea, extensive bloodworks are must do

Thanks for the welcome, Jelisej.

I agree with you about paleo, I personally believe it's recommended because the propecia guys would've expected an itemised shopping list. Paleo seems to be a great jumping off point, I think cdnuts recommended it because most of the guys there still follow the SAD and lack the initiative to really learn how they're meant to be eating. It's also great for adrenal insufficiency from what I can gather so I'm running with it, making adjustments and just generally feeling it out. I've had to become very in tune with my body very quickly but I enjoy it.

I wish I had a communicating hydrocele, unfortunately it's definitely extreme fluctuations in the testicular mass. I've seen a doctor multiple times and been told it's entirely normal for testicles to change size, I disagree and doctors don't really like that. I'll see a urologist but I'm inclined to believe I'll be met with the same sort of resistance I've been met with before but I'll press the issue.

I've also gotten myself an appointment with an endocrinologist around here but not much is known about this condition and doctors are especially unlikely to think outside of the box in the uk. Unfortunately I'm probably on my own here but I'm fully prepared for that.

I'm working on getting the cash together to pay for my own comprehensive bloodwork in an attempt to give myself an even clearer view with exactly what's going on in my body.

Testicles size mostly comes from different fluids and it can change size, and it can change it relatively quickly but normally it does not happen that often- especially not as you describe it, so there is likely possibility that you may have hydrocele, or some other condition where fluids are coming in and out- it can also be problem with prostate (which in itself can cause libido and other issues). So I think urologist is person to see- also urologists are generally more understanding people and they can even help with possible hormone issues, they can order bloodwork as well as prescribe testosterone treatment,
also once when you get some time- you may sit down and describe exactly what is going on, all relevant data symptoms etc....


And maybe would be good idea, if any moderator is reading to move this thread in "mens health" as it seems more appropriate, and it will save from creating another thread.

Testicles size mostly comes from different fluids and it can change size, and it can change it relatively quickly but normally it does not happen that often- especially not as you describe it, so there is likely possibility that you may have hydrocele, or some other condition where fluids are coming in and out

- Sorry Jelisej, It's awkward to be more specific about this situation but I'll try and explain the testicular issue with a little more details. Basically the testicles are rather uniform, left slightly smaller than the other, I want to say they're both slightly smaller than they usually are but as I wasn't very vigilant before there was a problem. However they left has blown up to the size of the right and the right has shrunken down to the size of the left. I can't really be more specific than that but it's certainly not normal and it's only been happening since my last run in with finasteride.

it can also be problem with prostate (which in itself can cause libido and other issues). So I think urologist is person to see- also urologists are generally more understanding people and they can even help with possible hormone issues, they can order bloodwork as well as prescribe testosterone treatment,

- Working on getting referred to a Urologist too, I'm not expecting very much however, most Doctors seem to be reluctant to acknowledge this is a possible problem and more reluctant to attempt treatment, even moreso in my country. I'm also reluctant to bring out the big guns so to speak at this early stage anyway, especially as nothing seems to work for most of the people experiencing similar issues. However I do want to make sure there's nothing sinister involved.. Nothing more sinister anyway!

also once when you get some time- you may sit down and describe exactly what is going on, all relevant data symptoms etc....

- This will take a very, very long time to explain. I took finasteride on and off for around seven years, I didn't actually experience any noticable side effects for most of that time. It's an incredibly insidious process if you're one of the guys who get's hit by the persistent side effects, so slow you don't notice. It's like a door closing incredibly slowly, over a period of months. You don't really realise the door's closing because it's closing so damned slowly until one day it's closed. Then the panic attacks, insomnia and severe sexual dysfunction kick in overnight. It'll take me a long time to explain this as thoroughly as possible but I'm going to try my best.

My situation has improved and that doesn't seem to be a very common theme for most of these guys so I'm very optimistic.

And maybe would be good idea, if any moderator is reading to move this thread in "mens health" as it seems more appropriate, and it will save from creating another thread.

That'd be great, if someone could maybe rename the thread too? I wasn't expecting this kind of support. I had resigned myself to having to take this strange journey alone. Intelligent support is incredibly appreciated. Thank you.

A quick rundown of my symptoms for Jelisej and anyone else interested - Edit, there be genital details in here, avoid if you don't have a sense of humour!

I'll try and be clear and concise, I'll list my current symptoms first and elaborate on the symptoms that've faded at the end.

I lost about fourteen pounds of muscle and I wasn't exactly a big guy before that. I went down to about 130lbs, by applying a few things I've learned here I've manage to put every pound back on as functional muscle. I've still got some fat around the midsection and such but I'm working on getting rid of that too, ideally I'd like to remove as much fat as possible to avoid excessive aromatisation as that's causing me some issues right now. Which moves me onto my next point.

Bilateral (Pseudo?) gyno. My right nipple is hella puffy without taking estrogen lowering supps. It's also sensitive and I have a couple of lumps in the chest, nothing behind the nipple, just a lot of puffiness. I'll be honest, this is annoying, but the lumps are worrying because they don't resemble glandular tissue in the way I'd imagine breast tissue to develop, nor how I've seen it described here. I'm pressing my doctor to confirm it's nothing sinister. He believes it's a "gland" which is retarded English Doctor for lymph node, it's possible with the muscle loss that it is a lymph node but it's hard, swollen and painless and that needs to be investigate regardless IMO. I've gained a little pectoral fat on both sides but not unreasonably.

Uncooperative testicles. Only way I can describe it. Sometimes they're almost normal size, sometimes they shrink, sometimes they switch that shit up, just for the sheer comedy. Who knows. I find it funny now because they're usually the right sorta size in the morning when T is supposedly highest. Smallest if I have a really disturbed nights sleep. I get a strange pulsing sensation in the left on quite often, occasionally just before bed both of them might decide to rhythmically pulsate. Maybe a couple of times a minute. I'm not sure exactly what to make of this but it's neutral for now. Nothing bad or good tends to follow.

Libido is pretty shot. Below the waist, I'm functional and it works but it's damned sluggish about it. I have to get myself interested and it'll rarely stand to attention without a little manual stimulation. I can still perform though thank god, I only get off with my girl now and we don't see each other all that often so fortunately this is something I can work around without any pde5 inhibiting drugs. I don't have that same drive to get laid though and that's somewhat upsetting.

My skin has gone to absolute hell, mostly in the areas I'd mark as most active androgen wise. All over my skin has thinned out quite a bit, especially on my face and junk. Wang looks like I traded with an extra from the walking dead. Still all functional, but it's just.. weird. Dark as hell circles under and around my eyes and a little bit of fat loss on the face, looks a bit grim.


On to the Eye of the Storm - So I used finasteride on and off for a very long time, seven years or so with very little in the way of side effects.
My last run in with the drug was totally different however, the batch was even the same, not expired, it was definitely finasteride and yet two pills in all hell broke loose. I went to bed one night feeling a little strange... I woke up six hours later with rubber, cold non responsive genitals. The next two weeks of so dealt with crippling insomnia, panic attacks, complete impotence and imposed asexuality, my facial hair, body hair and outer thirds of my eyebrows started shedding, tinnitus, my eyes wouldn't focus properly, muscle starting wasting at a rate of 2-3 pounds a week with no dietary changes whatsoever, hair started growing back at the temples (Something that never happened since I'd started balding, even on finasteride)

It was awful. I thought about killing myself a few times when I found that site, the stories are just awful. However I found cdnuts post and a few other guys who'd managed to pull themselves out of that hole. So I got to work, I started finding the patterns in their recoveries and trying to figure out why they managed to get out of the horrible situations they were in. Even started theorising as to what might have happened to us.

I've learned a lot here from reading about your experiences with aas. Finasteride is a steroid too, it's synthesized from progesterone.. or progestin, I can't remember which. It's actually an analogue of testosterone, therefore the mechanics of the drug seem to be very similar to most other androgenic compounds.. except finasteride is practically inert in these situations, it's not androgenic at all. It's also a suicide inhibitor. In my very uneducated opinion this means that when fin bound to the 5ar2 enzyme, it's not getting unbound, therefore my body has to replace the enzyme and it's very possible that the 5ar2 reduced compound now occupies a receptor site.

Anyway I've made a lot of progress. It's still very early days but I'm confident that I can beat this, so confident in fact, that I plan to start a training log here. Great diet and exercise are key to recovering from this shit and chances are I'm going to want to try androhard. So I'm following DJM's "Am I ready for aas/ph?" guide.

I'd love to brainstorm some with you guys. I'm trying to get all the relevant blood work now. I've got some of the basics I'll copy up when I find the form but it's nowhere near specific enough. . I'm thinking a full hormonal panel, vitamins, minerals, liver function, 24 hr saliva cortisol everything that could give us an idea. It'll be expensive but I'll gather together the funds to pay for it myself.

Try not too worry too much, if you can help it- regarding testicles let urologist do his part, blood tests will also tell some story- everything else is a speculation, and testicle size is actually very hard to gauge for numbers of reason. Lot of people that think that have small testicles actually have a big one and vice versa.

As for your gland, also no need to worry about it too much- only thing you can really do is to remove it surgically, so losing sleep over it is pointless.

Now, Finasteride is a bastard, and most of problems are because of it- but I think your situation is not as bad, what is best course of action, we'll see- but it will take time, dont try to rush things- and dont even think about prohormones. That is if you want to find a permanent solution.

I wouldn't dream of rushing into anything, much less any form of hormonal manipulation. I agree with you that my situation isn't that bad but it's been a very enlightening and humbling experience. I need to give my body the absolute best conditions it needs to heal. So whilst I'm not worrying exactly, I feel it's paramount to act now and be as informed as I possibly can. I also realise the need to let my mind relax and not dwell on the problem excessively.

Jelisej, I realise why you suggest I avoid any prohormones and I take your advice very seriously. However Androsterone/Epiandrosterone specifically have seemed to help a few of the people who've recovered from this so I'm still going to keep that open as a possible avenue in the distant future and try to learn as much as I can about these two products in the meantime.

Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by entropy

I wouldn't dream of rushing into anything, much less any form of hormonal manipulation. I agree with you that my situation isn't that bad but it's been a very enlightening and humbling experience. I need to give my body the absolute best conditions it needs to heal. So whilst I'm not worrying exactly, I feel it's paramount to act now and be as informed as I possibly can. I also realise the need to let my mind relax and not dwell on the problem excessively.

Jelisej, I realise why you suggest I avoid any prohormones and I take your advice very seriously. However Androsterone/Epiandrosterone specifically have seemed to help a few of the people who've recovered from this so I'm still going to keep that open as a possible avenue in the distant future and try to learn as much as I can about these two products in the meantime.

Thanks.

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Nutritionally, it would not hurt to start addressing this immediately. Vitamin D3 is a good place to start. While D3 is referred to as a vitamin, it is actually a steroid hormone (secosteroid). It has a lot of influence on hormonal production and is very important to your testosterone.

A high-quality tocotrienol supplement like Tococaps or Tocomin Supra Bio helps with things like LH sensitivity.

Although I, for whatever reason do not respond well to high doses of it and have to take a much lower dose, a Trans-Resveratrol supplement might be worth exploring.

And I may catch some flack for this, but I have some study data on it, but I am a big fan of Liftmode brand Tribulus. It is standardized at 90% steroidal saponins. When I take it, I notice a really nice leaning effect, better pumps and my libido increases. It also seems to cause some acne.

Most studies that show tribulus to have negligible impact on testosterone were done with extremely low or unknown standardizations. Most every supplement you'll find is only standardized at 20 to 45 percent. The liftmode is 90. It is available as a raw powder on Amazon.

None of these should be a detriment to any future physician's plan to put you back on track. For now I would steer clear of a DHT prohormone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freepressright

Nutritionally, it would not hurt to start addressing this immediately. Vitamin D3 is a good place to start. While D3 is referred to as a vitamin, it is actually a steroid hormone (secosteroid). It has a lot of influence on hormonal production and is very important to your testosterone.

A high-quality tocotrienol supplement like Tococaps or Tocomin Supra Bio helps with things like LH sensitivity.

Although I, for whatever reason do not respond well to high doses of it and have to take a much lower dose, a Trans-Resveratrol supplement might be worth exploring.

And I may catch some flack for this, but I have some study data on it, but I am a big fan of Liftmode brand Tribulus. It is standardized at 90% steroidal saponins. When I take it, I notice a really nice leaning effect, better pumps and my libido increases. It also seems to cause some acne.

Most studies that show tribulus to have negligible impact on testosterone were done with extremely low or unknown standardizations. Most every supplement you'll find is only standardized at 20 to 45 percent. The liftmode is 90. It is available as a raw powder on Amazon.

None of these should be a detriment to any future physician's plan to put you back on track. For now I would steer clear of a DHT prohormone.

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Great reply, FPR. I've started on 5000iu a day of Vit d3 and I've also been taking Jarrows Tocosorb in the mornings, I think I'll try a different brand when the bottle runs out though.
As for tribulus, I have some standardised at 45% steroidal soponins but I'm quite apprehensive about taking anything along those lines until I can lose a bit more of my body fat.

To give you an idea of the quality of medical care in my country, I've had to ask a friend to pull all of my bloodwork from my notes at the hospital as my GP refuses to allow me access to my bloodwork. It's disgusting and depressing. As of now I've been attempting to find a private doctor/endo/etc who's familiar with the situation but I've had very little success even finding a Doctor who's willing to acknowledge it's a possibility so far.

Again, you've all got a solemn promise from me that I'll be leaving the DHT prohormones very much alone until the distant future.

Thanks!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by entropy

Great reply, FPR. I've started on 5000iu a day of Vit d3 and I've also been taking Jarrows Tocosorb in the mornings, I think I'll try a different brand when the bottle runs out though.
As for tribulus, I have some standardised at 45% steroidal soponins but I'm quite apprehensive about taking anything along those lines until I can lose a bit more of my body fat.

To give you an idea of the quality of medical care in my country, I've had to ask a friend to pull all of my bloodwork from my notes at the hospital as my GP refuses to allow me access to my bloodwork. It's disgusting and depressing. As of now I've been attempting to find a private doctor/endo/etc who's familiar with the situation but I've had very little success even finding a Doctor who's willing to acknowledge it's a possibility so far.

Again, you've all got a solemn promise from me that I'll be leaving the DHT prohormones very much alone until the distant future.

Thanks!

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The tribulus may actually be of benefit to you in your weight loss efforts and a great compliment to your Tocosorb. The belief is that potent standardizations stimulate LH production. Others believe it has an impact upon DHEA, which has a direct impact upon your adrenal gland. Hopefully that will ease your apprehensions about it.

As for your quest to find a better doc, I wish you the best of luck. That's total bullshit that he won't divulge the results of YOUR bloodwork.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freepressright

The tribulus may actually be of benefit to you in your weight loss efforts and a great compliment to your Tocosorb. The belief is that potent standardizations stimulate LH production. Others believe it has an impact upon DHEA, which has a direct impact upon your adrenal gland. Hopefully that will ease your apprehensions about it.

As for your quest to find a better doc, I wish you the best of luck. That's total bullshit that he won't divulge the results of YOUR bloodwork.

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I think I'll investigate the tribulus further. Cd recommends cycling a whole host of supplements that have a direct/indirect effect on T and trib is one of them.

Thanks for the luck in regards to a Doctor, I'm going to need it. I'll post up my bloodwork later on, I haven't seen it myself yet but I have 3-4 sets of bloods in the past two months. I don't think they're all that comprehensive though, which is a shame.

Thanks bro, I appreciate it.

Bloodwork is in and it's a little bit interesting. Not what I was expecting. I've had four sets of bloodwork since 5th of september so I'll post ranges, then values in chronological order. 05/09, 09/09, 29/09, 16/10.

Bone Profile.

Serum adjusted Calcium (2.15 - 2.55) mmol/L - 2.23 (09/09), 2.12* (29/09) 2.25 (16/10)
Serum Albumin (35 - 52) g/L - 51 (09/09), 49 (29/09), 49 (16/10)
Serum Alkaline Phosphatase iu/L - 89 (09/09), 78 (29/09), 87 (16/10)
Serum Calcium (2.15 - 2.55) mmol/L - 2.45 (09/09), 2.30 (29/09), 2.43 (16/10)
Serum Globulin (18 - 36) g/L - 21 (09/09), 18 (29/09), 21 (16/10)
Serum Phosphate (0.81 - 1.45) mmol/L - 0.90 (09/09), 1.23 (29/09), 1.48* (16/10)
Serum total Protein (66 - 87) g/L - 71 (09/09), 67 (29/09), 70 (16/10)
Serum Urea (1.7 - 8.3) mmol/L - 2.2 (09/09), 3.1 (29/09), 2.6 (16/10)

C- Reactive Protein (S)
Serum C-reactive Protein (0-5) mg/L - <0.3 (09/09), <0.3 (29/09)

Creatine Kinase (Serum)
Serum Creatine Kinase (0-190) iu/L - 37 (09/09), 68 (16/10)

Electrolytes and Creatinine
Serum Creatinine (62 - 106) umol/L - 66 (09/09), 73 (29/09), 70 (16/10)
Serum Potassium (3.2 - 5.1) mmol/L - 3.9 (09/09), 4.1 (29/09), 4.4 (16/10)
Serum Sodium (136 - 145) mmol/L - 141 (09/09), 141 (29/09), 142 (16/10)

ESR (0 - 15) mm/hr - 2 (09/09), 2 (29/09), 5 (16/10)

Full Blood Count
Hb (135 - 180) g/L - 180 (05/09), 182* (09/09), 170 (29/09), 176 (16/10)
HCT (0.4 - 0.54) - 0.518 (05/09), 0.528 (09/09), 0.503 (29/09), 0.513 (16/10)
MCH (27 - 32) pg - 31.5 (05/09), 31.7 (09/09), 31.4 (29/09), 31.2 (16/10)
MCHC (310 - 360) g/L - 347 (05/09), 345 (09/09), 338 (29/09), 343 (16/10)
MCV (76 - 100) fL - 90.7 (05/09), 92.0 (09/09), 92.8 (29/09), 91.0 (16/10)
PLT (150 - 450) 10'9/L - 322 (05/09), 308 (09/09), 241 (29/09), 286 (16/10)
RBC (4.5 - 6.5) 10'12/L - 5.71 (05/09), 5.74 (09/09), 5.42 (29/09), 5.64 (16/10)
WBC (4 - 11) 10'9/L - 21.9* (05/09), 12.4* (09/09), 12.1* (29/09), 11.7* (16/10)

Liver Function Tests
Serum ALT (0 - 41) iu/L - 12 (09/09), 14 (29/09), 14 (16/10).
Serum Total Bilirubin (0 - 21) umol/L - 9 (09/09), 7 (29/09), 5 (16/10)

S Protein Electrophoresis
Serum Immunoglobulin A (0.7 - 4) g/L - 1.5 (09/09)
Serum Immunoglobulin G (7 - 16) g/L - 6.0* (09/09)
Serum Immunoglobulin M (0.4 - 2.3) g/L - 0.3* (09/09)

Serum Free Testosterone
Serum Albumin (35 - 52) gL - 47 (05/05) rest of the values up in the bone profile
Serum Free Testosterone (243 - 571) pmol/L - 395 (05/05), 395 (16/10)
Serum SHBG (18 - 54) nmol/L - 29 (05/05), 38 (16/10)
Serum Total Testosterone (11.4 - 27.9) nmol/L - 18.3 (05/05), 21.3 (16/10)

Thyroid Function Tests.
Serum Free Thyroxine (12 - 22) pmol/L - 21.2 (05/05)
Serum TSH (0.3 - 4.2) mu/L - 1.26 (05/05)

Sorry for the unpleasant wall of text. Needless to say, I'm insanely pissed off with my doctor right now, I was told I had a slightly elevated WBC... Now I find that at one point it's been double the normal range. Interesting. I can't make sense of a lot of it, would be great for one of you guys to weigh in if you get some free time.

Thanks.

When you done one of blood tests, you probably had a some kind of illness which is why your white blood count was high and testosterone bit lower than other time. As far as testosterone result its not so bad, improving lifestyle and stopping worrying too much would make big difference, your SHBG is bit highish, your thyroid is not bad, your fT4 is best I've seen on this forum.

Altough there are no adrenal hormones done, I believe your adrenal is fine based on some other results.

Your WBC is always bit high which may be result of training hard, or some underlying infection or inflammation, allergy... There are few people who naturally have bit high WBC.

All in all, not bad results, really.

Thanks, I wasn't sure what to make of the t4. I'm going to try and get some more comprehensive bloods done and try and relax. It's pretty difficult when you feel crappy a lot of the time though haha. I'm working on relaxing a bit more, mostly I've got a lot of discomfort downstairs and gyno symptoms at the moment. It's getting me down a little but hearing that the bloods are pretty good so far has helped alleviate some worries.

Thanks for the help.

As for discomfort downstairs- I think its best to wait what urologist has got to say, hopefully he will do proper check and rule all other stuff varicocele, hydrocele, etc... Gyno- you may may need some AI if they are sensitive, or if your E2 is slightly elevated which may be the case, and is seen with post-fina users- but to solve gyno completely you will need surgery, which I think is possible to get through HNS? If not than you'll have to go eastern europe someday.

Second thing is, I beleive that fina/propecia can also mess up with NO, so I think adding a lot of l citrulline could be helpful and even possibly solve the problem, I think FPR is the best to ask as he knows right combo

also I agree with his supplement (except tribulus which I'm doubtful) but tocopheril is must have ( I prefer mixed nuts- brazilian nuts, walnuts, hazelnuts etc..)
also taladafil may be helpful- it reduces E2 a bit, make testicles more effective, and also helps with NO).

As for DHT, that I would leave for distant future, after everything else has been cleared. It may not be needed.

Realxing/not worrying is biggest challenge- that will take a lot of time and will power, but it has to be done, otherwise you will not get result- as it has a really big cascading effect- affecting both hormones and neurotransmitters- which affect everything else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jelisej

As for discomfort downstairs- I think its best to wait what urologist has got to say, hopefully he will do proper check and rule all other stuff varicocele, hydrocele, etc... Gyno- you may may need some AI if they are sensitive, or if your E2 is slightly elevated which may be the case, and is seen with post-fina users- but to solve gyno completely you will need surgery, which I think is possible to get through HNS? If not than you'll have to go eastern europe someday.

Second thing is, I beleive that fina/propecia can also mess up with NO, so I think adding a lot of l citrulline could be helpful and even possibly solve the problem, I think FPR is the best to ask as he knows right combo

also I agree with his supplement (except tribulus which I'm doubtful) but tocopheril is must have ( I prefer mixed nuts- brazilian nuts, walnuts, hazelnuts etc..)
also taladafil may be helpful- it reduces E2 a bit, make testicles more effective, and also helps with NO).

As for DHT, that I would leave for distant future, after everything else has been cleared. It may not be needed.

Realxing/not worrying is biggest challenge- that will take a lot of time and will power, but it has to be done, otherwise you will not get result- as it has a really big cascading effect- affecting both hormones and neurotransmitters- which affect everything else.

---

I understand your skepticism of Tribulus, J. I was in that camp once myself. What changed my mind was when a co-worker of mine was on NOW Tribulus 1000 (standardized at 45%). This guy was already a genetic beast and he swore the stuff gave him a nice boost. I tried it and dosed it at 1,000mg 3x a day. I noticed the energy increase, libido went up, but what was most striking was the leaning effect. And I did get some acne.

About a year later I found the Liftmode Tribulus, which was standardized at 90%, higher than anything else on the market. And then I read this:

Tribulus Terrestris: Worthless or Unjustifiably Chastized? Part I

The whole experience swayed me.

The only disadvantage is that the taste of the 90% extract is fucking terrible. I could see it being a deal breaker for someone, it's so bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freepressright

The only disadvantage is that the taste of the 90% extract is fucking terrible. I could see it being a deal breaker for someone, it's so bad.

---

Cap that shit. Liftmode has good stuff. I'm gonna try this now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cdsnuts

Cap that shit. Liftmode has good stuff. I'm gonna try this now.

---

The man himself beat me to it. Can I cap it? Ima cap it. How's the land of the living treating you, CD? Good I hope.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by entropy

The man himself beat me to it. Can I cap it? Ima cap it. How's the land of the living treating you, CD? Good I hope.

---

From where I was, everyday is a good day my friend. You'll get there too, eventually.

You know it bro, I -love- this forum too, so much knowledge. It's like a different world. Happy Halloween fellas.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freepressright

I understand your skepticism of Tribulus, J. I was in that camp once myself. What changed my mind was when a co-worker of mine was on NOW Tribulus 1000 (standardized at 45%). This guy was already a genetic beast and he swore the stuff gave him a nice boost. I tried it and dosed it at 1,000mg 3x a day. I noticed the energy increase, libido went up, but what was most striking was the leaning effect. And I did get some acne.
About a year later I found the Liftmode Tribulus, which was standardized at 90%, higher than anything else on the market. And then I read this:
Tribulus Terrestris: Worthless or Unjustifiably Chastized? Part I
The whole experience swayed me.
The only disadvantage is that the taste of the 90% extract is fucking terrible. I could see it being a deal breaker for someone, it's so bad.

---

I do not doubt that tribulus has some positive effects, there are lot of folks who swear by it.
On other hand- all bloodwork that I've seen does not show any noticeable effect on testosterone levels, and some of tribulus was pure from Bulgaria.
So, there must be something in trib. but I cant promote it as testosterone booster until there is enough evidence for it.



Enthropy, you may find these threads usefull:
Citrulline Cures Erectile Dysfunction

Citrulline Malate and Agmatine Sulfate: An inside look by Freepressright

Posts #9, 10, 11: Anbolic technologies

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jelisej

I do not doubt that tribulus has some positive effects, there are lot of folks who swear by it.
On other hand- all bloodwork that I've seen does not show any noticeable effect on testosterone levels, and some of tribulus was pure from Bulgaria.
So, there must be something in trib. but I cant promote it as testosterone booster until there is enough evidence for it.



Enthropy, you may find these threads usefull:
Citrulline Cures Erectile Dysfunction

Citrulline Malate and Agmatine Sulfate: An inside look by Freepressright

Posts #9, 10, 11: Anbolic technologies

---

Thanks for the post, Jelisej. With my girl atm so I haven't had a chance to have a proper read. Will report back tomorrow night. Just for the lols though... I'm kinda functional! Thanks guys.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cdsnuts

Cap that shit. Liftmode has good stuff. I'm gonna try this now.

---

Ya know, you'd think with all my years of doing this that I'd have done that by now, LOL. But, for whatever reason, I haven't.

Do they make something to load capsules with or do you just scoop and put them together? Any suggestions on where to get capsules and whatever else I'd need?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freepressright

Ya know, you'd think with all my years of doing this that I'd have done that by now, LOL. But, for whatever reason, I haven't.

Do they make something to load capsules with or do you just scoop and put them together? Any suggestions on where to get capsules and whatever else I'd need?

---

You could make a little paper funnel if you really wanted to save cash but it'd be infuriating. You can find capsule filling machines for pretty cheap. Something like this would work Amazon.com: The Capsule Machine Personal Care

Gelcaps Amazon.com: 1 bag bulk wholesale 1000 Personal Care

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freepressright

Ya know, you'd think with all my years of doing this that I'd have done that by now, LOL. But, for whatever reason, I haven't.

Do they make something to load capsules with or do you just scoop and put them together? Any suggestions on where to get capsules and whatever else I'd need?

---

This is the one I've had for six or seven years now....

Amazon.com: The Capsule Machine Personal Care

Brief update for anyone interested: I've put on 10lbs and lost some fat, pretty interesting stuff. The rest of my symptoms seem to be very slowly subsiding in a cyclical nature. IE: 3-4 Good days where I feel "Okay" then a few days where I regress back to feeling like shit. It's like someone is flipping a switch in my brain yet every time I cycle from shitty to okay I feel a little more okay or a little less shitty. Interesting. Still following cds regime from the other site, seems to be serving me well, much better than my Doctor. Nice fella, went on holiday for a fortnight the day after he promised to refer me to an endo/urologist. Ass.

When I feel good I'm pretty confident I'm going to be able to get myself behind normal now. When I feel bad, not so much, but it's obviously going to take a long time to get back from something like this.